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so that drop in his 3s coincide with OG's departure and the new role defensively on top of scoring, rebounding, passing, blocking and stealing..missing anything? That is a lot of freaking work for one man

JShuttlesworth wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie's assist totals over the last 7 games: 12, 10, 3, 8, 9, 10, 8. Averaging 8.6 assists to 3.3 turnovers over this span.

Barnes is picking teams apart once the double comes. Surrounding him with more shooters/creators/cutters has unlocked a lot more passing potential.

Barnes works so well as a central hub as opposed to a primary scoring option. He can take what the defense gives him offensively, but he creates complete havoc when he's finding open players. Now we have guys who can finish plays around the basket or from 3 when Barnes finds them.

Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

He doesn’t need to be the first option, but he still needs to improve his scoring ability to open up even more space for passing.

RJ and IQ can be that 1st and 2nd guy on scoring. BBQ fits with each other very well offensively.

JShuttlesworth wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie's assist totals over the last 7 games: 12, 10, 3, 8, 9, 10, 8. Averaging 8.6 assists to 3.3 turnovers over this span.

Barnes is picking teams apart once the double comes. Surrounding him with more shooters/creators/cutters has unlocked a lot more passing potential.

Barnes works so well as a central hub as opposed to a primary scoring option. He can take what the defense gives him offensively, but he creates complete havoc when he's finding open players. Now we have guys who can finish plays around the basket or from 3 when Barnes finds them.

Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

He certainly is best as a hub. Consistently getting players open in the halfcourt is the biggest challenge with Scottie as a hub. He doesn't have the handle, speed, or outside threat to breakdown a defense. He's not a center like Jokic or Gasol that will draw the paint defender out of position. Scottie needs to be strong. And he needs to be multifaceted. I think he needs to bully in the middle to open advantages. And he should embrace the short roll too. He can be incredibly versatile.

JShuttlesworth wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie's assist totals over the last 7 games: 12, 10, 3, 8, 9, 10, 8. Averaging 8.6 assists to 3.3 turnovers over this span.

Barnes is picking teams apart once the double comes. Surrounding him with more shooters/creators/cutters has unlocked a lot more passing potential.

Barnes works so well as a central hub as opposed to a primary scoring option. He can take what the defense gives him offensively, but he creates complete havoc when he's finding open players. Now we have guys who can finish plays around the basket or from 3 when Barnes finds them.

Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

I agree that Barnes can be a very effective player without scoring 25-30 points. However, if you want to be a contending team somehow has to be that guy.

This team still needs to find its elite scorer. IQ/RJ are probably not it either. This team in its final form is going to have to make a big trade for a true superstar for Barnes to be a duo with. Hopefully, we can snag SGA or something when he is a FA

To acquire that scorer to pair with Scottie is best done via the draft. Otherwise, with lower picks, its very difficult to accomplish. Recent decisions indicates getting a high pick isn't a priority for management. The solution appears to be the mystery box trade scenario (didn't happen in last situation) or UFA in 4 years? That's a poor plan.

MessiahUjiri wrote:

Scase wrote:

DG88 wrote:This was essentially the blueprint to unlock him. Surround Barnes with shooters and cutters and let him go to work. JJ Reddick said the same thing in his podcast when he brought up his coaching interview with the Raptors.

This is what so many of us have been SCREAMING for like 2 years now. Give him the Jokic role, let him distribute to the team, he has insane vision, if Hockey assists were a thing he'd be averaging like 20apg lol.

Hell if the team knocked down more (which has been getting better with Dick) open shots, he'd be averaging damn near a triple double. Sky is the limit for this kid, people just need to get out of their heads that he should be putting up 30ppg.

I’ve wondered if Scottie could avg 10 assists. That would put him top 5 in the league in assists. Hes already almost there in terms of potential.

I think he’s like a smaller Jokic, with lesser scoring impact.


What could he average in 2 years?

I’m thinking 22 pts / 10 as / 10 rb/ 2 bl/ 1 st

I can definitely see if happening, he absolutely has the skill set. I wouldn't be surprised if his rebs take a bit of a dip as he becomes more of a distributor, depending on where he is typically positioned on the floor.

Before the trades, he was averaging 5.9apg. Since the OG trade, he's averaging 6.4apg. Since the Siakam trade, he's averaging 7.2.
Before the trades, the team 3p% was 34.3%. Since the OG trade, they are averaging 37.7%. Since the Siakam trade, they are averaging 35.4%.

I think it's a safe assumption that as our 3p% gets more reliable and creeps up more, reaching 9apg (post trade) should be doable this year. There are many times each game wide open 3's he sets up are missed. Team hits even 2 more of those and he's flirting with averaging a triple double.

What he needs to do, is get his midrange game in order, and that will massively open up the floor for him and the team. But like you said, Jokic with less scoring is pretty accurate and what a lot of people have been saying definitely this season. 20/10/10 is not at all a hard marker for him to hit in the future. He's putting up 20/8/7 since the Siakam trade, at 22 years old, with a sub optimal roster.

YogurtProducer wrote:

XTC wrote:Scottie really struggling from 3. While I'm happy he's attempting the 3, he's shooting 25% from 3 in his last 28 games. It's been all downhill since he went 7/15 from 3 vs Boston.

This directly coincides with his scoring slump. He needs to figure out a way to score when his jumper isn't falling. He needs to develop some post moves/work the mid range this summer.

I still think naturally he's a pass first guy. He likes to get his teammates going, which is why I think having guys like RJ and IQ are great for Scottie. The Scottie we have seen recently is the best version of Scottie. He's not being forced to score, but he's focusing on defense, rebounding, playmaking, and scoring in the flow of the offense. RJ and IQ in return have been far more aggressive, and I think this is the way many envisioned Scottie playing... a Jokic type role, and I think IQ and RJ can be his Jamal Murray.

IT is a trend now. Every year his 3 pointer is hot in November / December and then it falls off a cliff. There has got to be a reason this happens and I would bet it is his fundamentals he works on all summer starts to slip when he is not "practicing" as much.

And that’s why he needs more work. The shooting form has to be automatic and it needs to hold up when rushed or fatigued.

ItsDanger wrote:To acquire that scorer to pair with Scottie is best done via the draft. Otherwise, with lower picks, its very difficult to accomplish. Recent decisions indicates getting a high pick isn't a priority for management. The solution appears to be the mystery box trade scenario (didn't happen in last situation) or UFA in 4 years? That's a poor plan.

Writing the same post for years must be exhausting.

Scase wrote:

MessiahUjiri wrote:

Scase wrote:This is what so many of us have been SCREAMING for like 2 years now. Give him the Jokic role, let him distribute to the team, he has insane vision, if Hockey assists were a thing he'd be averaging like 20apg lol.

Hell if the team knocked down more (which has been getting better with Dick) open shots, he'd be averaging damn near a triple double. Sky is the limit for this kid, people just need to get out of their heads that he should be putting up 30ppg.

I’ve wondered if Scottie could avg 10 assists. That would put him top 5 in the league in assists. Hes already almost there in terms of potential.

I think he’s like a smaller Jokic, with lesser scoring impact.


What could he average in 2 years?

I’m thinking 22 pts / 10 as / 10 rb/ 2 bl/ 1 st

I can definitely see if happening, he absolutely has the skill set. I wouldn't be surprised if his rebs take a bit of a dip as he becomes more of a distributor, depending on where he is typically positioned on the floor.

Before the trades, he was averaging 5.9apg. Since the OG trade, he's averaging 6.4apg. Since the Siakam trade, he's averaging 7.2.
Before the trades, the team 3p% was 34.3%. Since the OG trade, they are averaging 37.7%. Since the Siakam trade, they are averaging 35.4%.

I think it's a safe assumption that as our 3p% gets more reliable and creeps up more, reaching 9apg (post trade) should be doable this year. There are many times each game wide open 3's he sets up are missed. Team hits even 2 more of those and he's flirting with averaging a triple double.

What he needs to do, is get his midrange game in order, and that will massively open up the floor for him and the team. But like you said, Jokic with less scoring is pretty accurate and what a lot of people have been saying definitely this season. 20/10/10 is not at all a hard marker for him to hit in the future. He's putting up 20/8/7 since the Siakam trade, at 22 years old, with a sub optimal roster.

Dejounte Murray had a 21, 8 and 9 season as well out of nowhere so it's certainly possible for him to do it but the assist numbers are actually probably inflated in this system. We are a below average offense that's top 3 in assists. We emphasize ball movement before a shot is taken but not all passes that lead to a shot attempt are equal. Schroder was averaging 6 APG as well here and he's down to 4 APG in Brooklyn. IQ is at 5.6 APG much higher than his career averages as well and I don't think anyone would say his playmaking is a strength of his.

PushDaRock wrote:

Scase wrote:

MessiahUjiri wrote:

I’ve wondered if Scottie could avg 10 assists. That would put him top 5 in the league in assists. Hes already almost there in terms of potential.

I think he’s like a smaller Jokic, with lesser scoring impact.


What could he average in 2 years?

I’m thinking 22 pts / 10 as / 10 rb/ 2 bl/ 1 st

I can definitely see if happening, he absolutely has the skill set. I wouldn't be surprised if his rebs take a bit of a dip as he becomes more of a distributor, depending on where he is typically positioned on the floor.

Before the trades, he was averaging 5.9apg. Since the OG trade, he's averaging 6.4apg. Since the Siakam trade, he's averaging 7.2.
Before the trades, the team 3p% was 34.3%. Since the OG trade, they are averaging 37.7%. Since the Siakam trade, they are averaging 35.4%.

I think it's a safe assumption that as our 3p% gets more reliable and creeps up more, reaching 9apg (post trade) should be doable this year. There are many times each game wide open 3's he sets up are missed. Team hits even 2 more of those and he's flirting with averaging a triple double.

What he needs to do, is get his midrange game in order, and that will massively open up the floor for him and the team. But like you said, Jokic with less scoring is pretty accurate and what a lot of people have been saying definitely this season. 20/10/10 is not at all a hard marker for him to hit in the future. He's putting up 20/8/7 since the Siakam trade, at 22 years old, with a sub optimal roster.

Dejounte Murray had a 21, 8 and 9 season as well out of nowhere so it's certainly possible for him to do it but the assist numbers are actually probably inflated in this system. We are a below average offense that's top 3 in assists. We emphasize ball movement before a shot is taken but not all passes that lead to a shot attempt are equal. Schroder was averaging 6 APG as well here and he's down to 4 APG in Brooklyn. IQ is at 5.6 APG much higher than his career averages as well and I don't think anyone would say his playmaking is a strength of his.

Not sure I'd say it's strictly inflated per se, but yeah it's higher due to the system we run. Scotties assists aren't typically the low effort ones, he's typically doubled or they are created out of directing traffic. Overall some wiggle room on numbers for sure, but the team pre OG trade was at 27.4apg and since then, we are at 29.3. Despite the play style being drastically different.

I think once the offence gets better and more efficient, the APG will still climb. There's still tons of plays that are completely ruined by Brown and to a lesser degree GTJ, the blown layup that Scottie put on a silver platter for brown last night being a prime example. I expect those instances to decrease over time which should lead to more APG.

Either way, a good sign I think!

Spates wrote:

JShuttlesworth wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie's assist totals over the last 7 games: 12, 10, 3, 8, 9, 10, 8. Averaging 8.6 assists to 3.3 turnovers over this span.

Barnes is picking teams apart once the double comes. Surrounding him with more shooters/creators/cutters has unlocked a lot more passing potential.

Barnes works so well as a central hub as opposed to a primary scoring option. He can take what the defense gives him offensively, but he creates complete havoc when he's finding open players. Now we have guys who can finish plays around the basket or from 3 when Barnes finds them.

Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

He certainly is best as a hub. Consistently getting players open in the halfcourt is the biggest challenge with Scottie as a hub. He doesn't have the handle, speed, or outside threat to breakdown a defense. He's not a center like Jokic or Gasol that will draw the paint defender out of position. Scottie needs to be strong. And he needs to be multifaceted. I think he needs to bully in the middle to open advantages. And he should embrace the short roll too. He can be incredibly versatile.

He has potential to be more than that. 2 of his 4 turnovers last night should have been assists had his teammates made the hard roll/cut into the gap that he expected them to.
On the other hand 3-4 of his assists from yesterday came from out of bounds plays or simply being the primary ball handler passing to a shooter coming off a screen.

Turnover 1

Turnover 2

BetterCallSaul wrote:

Spates wrote:

JShuttlesworth wrote:
Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

He certainly is best as a hub. Consistently getting players open in the halfcourt is the biggest challenge with Scottie as a hub. He doesn't have the handle, speed, or outside threat to breakdown a defense. He's not a center like Jokic or Gasol that will draw the paint defender out of position. Scottie needs to be strong. And he needs to be multifaceted. I think he needs to bully in the middle to open advantages. And he should embrace the short roll too. He can be incredibly versatile.

He has potential to be more than that. 2 of his 4 turnovers last night should have been assists had his teammates made the hard roll/cut into the gap that he expected them to.
On the other hand 3-4 of his assists from yesterday came from out of bounds plays or simply being the primary ball handler passing to a shooter coming off a screen.

Turnover 1

Turnover 2

IQ one was annoying but that is more of an unfamiliarity, the Jak one last night was aggravating because I don't think he has the athleticism to be in the right spot consistently.

Barnes (987) is just 129 assists from passing Bosh (1115) for 10th All-Time on the Raptors assist list.

With 23 games remaining, he would need to average 5.7 APG to do it. Scottie averaged 7.4 APG in February

manjusaka wrote:

JShuttlesworth wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:Scottie's assist totals over the last 7 games: 12, 10, 3, 8, 9, 10, 8. Averaging 8.6 assists to 3.3 turnovers over this span.

Barnes is picking teams apart once the double comes. Surrounding him with more shooters/creators/cutters has unlocked a lot more passing potential.

Barnes works so well as a central hub as opposed to a primary scoring option. He can take what the defense gives him offensively, but he creates complete havoc when he's finding open players. Now we have guys who can finish plays around the basket or from 3 when Barnes finds them.

Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

He doesn’t need to be the first option, but he still needs to improve his scoring ability to open up even more space for passing.

RJ and IQ can be that 1st and 2nd guy on scoring. BBQ fits with each other very well offensively.

To me, Scottie at this point is a modern day Andrei Kirilenko. AK47's defense was better at this stage, but he dropped off as his career went on due to injuries and lack of progression/improvement.

As a scorer, Scottie needs to watch Giannis, Durant, Kawhi, Paul George and even Doncic, then take what works for him. Most important aspect is polishing up that jumper.

RoteSchroder wrote:

manjusaka wrote:

JShuttlesworth wrote:
Bingo

It annoys me when people always question whether Scottie can be a "1st Option" or "Primary Option", with people essentially questioning his scoring. Scottie is a passer, if you give him the ball his preference isn't to score, it's to free up one of his teammates for an open look. He makes everyone around him better, they just need to learn to play off him (which I think Gradey does really well)

He doesn't need to score 25-30 points to be effective, you can run your offense through him knowing he's going to try and make the right play

He doesn’t need to be the first option, but he still needs to improve his scoring ability to open up even more space for passing.

RJ and IQ can be that 1st and 2nd guy on scoring. BBQ fits with each other very well offensively.

To me, Scottie at this point is a modern day Andrei Kirilenko. AK47's defense was better at this stage, but he dropped off as his career went on due to injuries and lack of progression/improvement.

As a scorer, Scottie needs to watch Giannis, Durant, Kawhi, Paul George and even Doncic, then take what works for him. Most important aspect is polishing up that jumper.

Other than both being good shot blockers, their games are way too different for this player comp, especially on the offensive end. I would say Aaron Gordon is a much closer to an AK47 archetype

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

ItsDanger wrote:To acquire that scorer to pair with Scottie is best done via the draft. Otherwise, with lower picks, its very difficult to accomplish. Recent decisions indicates getting a high pick isn't a priority for management. The solution appears to be the mystery box trade scenario (didn't happen in last situation) or UFA in 4 years? That's a poor plan.

Historically has actually been quite difficult to find that player through the draft.

Now that Scottie is on Shaqtin' a Fool, can he stop trying to take a charge when the guy is over 20 ft away from him? I also notice he got a couple of other teammates doing that with no success. Scottie tried it at the all star game which is OK, but not a real game.

Los_29 wrote:

ItsDanger wrote:To acquire that scorer to pair with Scottie is best done via the draft. Otherwise, with lower picks, its very difficult to accomplish. Recent decisions indicates getting a high pick isn't a priority for management. The solution appears to be the mystery box trade scenario (didn't happen in last situation) or UFA in 4 years? That's a poor plan.

Historically has actually been quite difficult to find that player through the draft.

Historically it is hard to find that player anywhere.

Scottie's ppg went up by 5 vs last season with 2.6 more shots a game. Some of you might not think so, but that kind of change is a significant sign of his scoring ability. He can hit 25ppg in 2-3 seasons

HiJiNX wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

XTC wrote:Scottie really struggling from 3. While I'm happy he's attempting the 3, he's shooting 25% from 3 in his last 28 games. It's been all downhill since he went 7/15 from 3 vs Boston.

This directly coincides with his scoring slump. He needs to figure out a way to score when his jumper isn't falling. He needs to develop some post moves/work the mid range this summer.

I still think naturally he's a pass first guy. He likes to get his teammates going, which is why I think having guys like RJ and IQ are great for Scottie. The Scottie we have seen recently is the best version of Scottie. He's not being forced to score, but he's focusing on defense, rebounding, playmaking, and scoring in the flow of the offense. RJ and IQ in return have been far more aggressive, and I think this is the way many envisioned Scottie playing... a Jokic type role, and I think IQ and RJ can be his Jamal Murray.

IT is a trend now. Every year his 3 pointer is hot in November / December and then it falls off a cliff. There has got to be a reason this happens and I would bet it is his fundamentals he works on all summer starts to slip when he is not "practicing" as much.

And that’s why he needs more work. The shooting form has to be automatic and it needs to hold up when rushed or fatigued.

I am confident a wider study would indicate that 3PT % declines as the year progresses more significantly for self-made shooters in the NBA, especially in the playoffs. In the summer they're building up that memory from a few spots on the court, and then as you said it gets scouted out (to the extent they 'rush' when they hit those spots) or they are impacted by the wear and tear of the season.