IOC orders investigation into He Kexin's age

[dacher]

Whatever the result of the investigation, I really hope it makes them revisit the horrible age rule.

I was reading Liukin's wiki, in 2003 and 2004 she was the #1 junior gymnast, (beating out gymnasts who made 2004 olympic team). She came in 2nd in pan am games against senior gymnasts. It quotes Marta Karolyi saying Liukin would have made the US olympic gymnast team in 2004 Athens if she hadn't been underage by a year.

It would have been nice to see her in 2004 olympics and how much better she got in 2008. Her loss. Our loss.

[Michael Phelps]

IMO, and I'm not trying to be biased, but the U.S. women looked more fierce and hungry in trying to win the gold more than the Chinese girls. I mean yeah both sides had troubles, but I could see it. I don't know if this is me just because I'm an American, but I just believe that I saw the U.S. hungrier to get it and they had just worked a little harder, but came up short. I am still proud of the girls even if the do or don't get the medals. I mean, the two best got their individual gold anyways.

[Doctor MJ]

I think if the Chinese girls are convicted, the IOC will probably give the option for the American girls to get the gold. I think the American girls will refuse, showing true class and say China was the better team despite their age, and then everyone is happy. At least thats my dream scenario IF this case is proven.

I guess I'm a softy and obviously biased, but I can't bare to see those little girls getting their hard earned medals taken away when they were the best.

That seems the least likely of all possibilities to me.

Things to keep in mind when thinking of those little girls:

1) Liukin, the main person whose suffering from this right now, would have been in the Olympics in 2004 if not for the rule. If these girls were too young letting it slide wouldn't simply be cutting them a break, it would mean double the sacrifice for others who actually followed the rules.

2) At least with He, it's clear she'd having knowingly broken the rules, so really she'd deserve punishment as much as anyone who'd knowingly broken any other rules.

3) Any nation that violates any rules deserves every once of shame thrust upon them (yes, including the US). The Olympics are first and foremost supposed to be about unity. All cheating must attacked with great force. (And for it to be the home nation, and for the conspiracy to go up to the government is the most dispicable thing of all)

But, to keep in mind as well:

This is about the stupidest rule I've ever heard of. It doesn't protect the athletes, who will train from an early age regardless, and if a nation is totally dedicated to cheating and is organized about it, the rule is utterly unenforceable. It's like the IOC doesn't actually think about Step B before committing to Step A.

[XcalibuR]

I think if the Chinese girls are convicted, the IOC will probably give the option for the American girls to get the gold. I think the American girls will refuse, showing true class and say China was the better team despite their age, and then everyone is happy. At least thats my dream scenario IF this case is proven.

I guess I'm a softy and obviously biased, but I can't bare to see those little girls getting their hard earned medals taken away when they were the best.

That seems the least likely of all possibilities to me.

Things to keep in mind when thinking of those little girls:

1) Liukin, the main person whose suffering from this right now, would have been in the Olympics in 2004 if not for the rule. If these girls were too young letting it slide wouldn't simply be cutting them a break, it would mean double the sacrifice for others who actually followed the rules.

2) At least with He, it's clear she'd having knowingly broken the rules, so really she'd deserve punishment as much as anyone who'd knowingly broken any other rules.

3) Any nation that violates any rules deserves every once of shame thrust upon them (yes, including the US). The Olympics are first and foremost supposed to be about unity. All cheating must attacked with great force. (And for it to be the home nation, and for the conspiracy to go up to the government is the most dispicable thing of all)

But, to keep in mind as well:

This is about the stupidest rule I've ever heard of. It doesn't protect the athletes, who will train from an early age regardless, and if a nation is totally dedicated to cheating and is organized about it, the rule is utterly unenforceable. It's like the IOC doesn't actually think about Step B before committing to Step A.

I agree with all your points but its just that this is like the punishment that doesn't fit the crime, kind of like the US condemning China's executions of corrupted politicians. Its nothing like performance enhancing drugs, yet its being treated as if its the same. Again that was my "dream scenario" (not likely), which i think benefits everyone, especially young kids. I don't believe the US girls will appreciate their gold when they know they're not the best in the world, and that this act of sportsmanship will lead to this rule being changed in the future.

[Doctor MJ]

I agree with all your points but its just that this is like the punishment that doesn't fit the crime, kind of like the US condemning China's executions of corrupted politicians. Its nothing like performance enhancing drugs, yet its being treated as if its the same. Again that was my "dream scenario" (not likely), which i think benefits everyone, especially young kids. I don't believe the US girls will appreciate their gold when they know they're not the best in the world, and that this act of sportsmanship will lead to this rule being changed in the future.

Well one other thing: How do you know that if the US had had their top under-16 girls they wouldn't have beaten the Chinese in the team event? The Chinese aren't the only ones who've had prodigies. You can't just consider the young girls from China without considering their counterparts from elsewhere. Cheating means getting an opportunity that other people aren't getting by violating the rules. It makes it no more fair through what means the ill begotten gains come from to the person being put at a disadvantage.

[Mags FTW]

Well one other thing: How do you know that if the US had had their top under-16 girls they wouldn't have beaten the Chinese in the team event? The Chinese aren't the only ones who've had prodigies. You can't just consider the young girls from China without considering their counterparts from elsewhere. Cheating means getting an opportunity that other people aren't getting by violating the rules. It makes it no more fair through what means the ill begotten gains come from to the person being put at a disadvantage.

Exactly. This is where you're not getting the point, XcalibuR. If every country was allowed to bring their best girls who were under 16, who knows what the outcome would have been?

[canoner]

I agree with all your points but its just that this is like the punishment that doesn't fit the crime, kind of like the US condemning China's executions of corrupted politicians. Its nothing like performance enhancing drugs, yet its being treated as if its the same. Again that was my "dream scenario" (not likely), which i think benefits everyone, especially young kids. I don't believe the US girls will appreciate their gold when they know they're not the best in the world, and that this act of sportsmanship will lead to this rule being changed in the future.

Well one other thing: How do you know that if the US had had their top under-16 girls they wouldn't have beaten the Chinese in the team event? The Chinese aren't the only ones who've had prodigies. You can't just consider the young girls from China without considering their counterparts from elsewhere. Cheating means getting an opportunity that other people aren't getting by violating the rules. It makes it no more fair through what means the ill begotten gains come from to the person being put at a disadvantage.

Who are the 16- prodigies in the US? These Athletes do not suddenly show up on the radar when they turn 16.

[Mags FTW]

Who are the 16- prodigies in the US? These Athletes do not suddenly show up on the radar when they turn 16.

1) I don't think any of us here are so big into the gymnastics scene that we can name which 14 year old girls are the next stars.

2) Why are we limiting this to just the US girls? I'm sure out of all the countries who competed there has to be at least 1 or 2 15-year-old phenoms.

[XcalibuR]

I agree with all your points but its just that this is like the punishment that doesn't fit the crime, kind of like the US condemning China's executions of corrupted politicians. Its nothing like performance enhancing drugs, yet its being treated as if its the same. Again that was my "dream scenario" (not likely), which i think benefits everyone, especially young kids. I don't believe the US girls will appreciate their gold when they know they're not the best in the world, and that this act of sportsmanship will lead to this rule being changed in the future.

Well one other thing: How do you know that if the US had had their top under-16 girls they wouldn't have beaten the Chinese in the team event? The Chinese aren't the only ones who've had prodigies. You can't just consider the young girls from China without considering their counterparts from elsewhere. Cheating means getting an opportunity that other people aren't getting by violating the rules. It makes it no more fair through what means the ill begotten gains come from to the person being put at a disadvantage.

I haven't heard of any American prodigies that got more hype than Shawn, Nastia, Alicia and Memmel, they were all the most decorated ones. Correct me if I'm wrong though because I don't follow Gymnastics.

[Mags FTW]

They aren't allowed to compete at the senior level, so how would we know?

That is, unless our government decided to do some sort of "stars of the future" profile on one of them...

[Doctor MJ]

I haven't heard of any American prodigies that got more hype than Shawn, Nastia, Alicia and Memmel, they were all the most decorated ones. Correct me if I'm wrong though because I don't follow Gymnastics.

I have no idea honestly. My point wasn't to claim the US definitively would have won in that situation, it was to point out the things you need to consider when evaluating this. Bottom line, if you allow a team to break rules, at some point there's going to have been another team who would have done better had they broken the rules. It's not right. However rough it'd be to punish the young girls who broke the rules conceivably without any understanding, it's far worse to punish the young girls specifically because the followed the rules, which is what failure to enforce broken rules amounts to.

But I will throw in just from the little bit I know: Might the 2004 Olympics been different if Liukin had competed? The US women got silver, could Liukin conceivably been the difference? We'll never know.

[jourdy]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijin ... &type=lgns

The IOC said there is no proof that the girl are underage.
Birth certificate, family residence permit, ID, current and former passport have all been consistent with He's age.

Are all of these faked? ....Stay tuned for future updates!
Investigation parts 2 and 3 up next!

[BadWolf]

Man the U.S. deserves these medals, look how hard they tried.

Why do you think others don't try hard?

[jourdy]

I think he meant, "look how hard they tried to smear the Chinese."

[Muzzleshot]

here's the work the "New York computer security expert" did

http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2008/08/h ... mpics.html

We should just put this issue to a rest. Whatever document can be found, could be easily discredited as well. I just saw the article about US covering up doping athletes that includes big names like Carl Lewis. I've never seen that article, which means US media do a pretty darn good job at covering up.

Those documents were recently released. If someone from the US media had reliable info they would have broke that story long ago.
Lets not confuse the US media with China's controlled media.

[jourdy]

Wasn't that article dated 1997?

[Ming Kong!]

I too hope the USA girls allow the Chinese girls to keep their medals, cause THEY (as in the girls, not the country) deserved it. I just want the IOC to take some measure.

[dougthonus]

I too hope the USA girls allow the Chinese girls to keep their medals, cause THEY (as in the girls, not the country) deserved it. I just want the IOC to take some measure.

I do feel bad for the girls in this situation. Whether they actually are underage or not, they aren't really in position to defend themselves and deal with this. It's a horrible position to be in if they are really of age and haven't done anything wrong, and if they are really underage then it's still pretty awful that they got put in that spot without having any control over it.

[Doctor MJ]

I too hope the USA girls allow the Chinese girls to keep their medals, cause THEY (as in the girls, not the country) deserved it. I just want the IOC to take some measure.

Yeah I understand that feeling. I suppose I'd be open to another punishment that wouldn't punish the girls specifically, but it'd have to be something sufficiently harsh on everyone responsible. In this case, it would seem clear that the Chinese government would be involved, so how can you punish them?

[canoner]

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns

The IOC said there is no proof that the girl are underage.
Birth certificate, family residence permit, ID, current and former passport have all been consistent with He's age.

Are all of these faked? ....Stay tuned for future updates!
Investigation parts 2 and 3 up next!

If nothing changes and those girls are ultimately cleared, I expect US Olympic Committee to issue a formal apology to those girls for starting/participation a smear campaign without concrete proof. Any individual blogger can do this, but a government entity should not stow this low. We tax payers are already footing the bill of Iraq war, product of a giant smear campaign. This can not become a trend.