T&T Games General Drafting/Off-Topic Thread

[Dr Positivity]

Motion for Larry Nance (the original) to get more respect. 17/8/3/1/2. Doesn't cost a lot. Midrange game. Five seasons over 10 WS. 109.6 career WS.

More career WS than Detlef, Hornacek, Manu, Bosh, Laimbeer, Sheed, Cheeks, Melo, Eddie, Tyson, TMac, Bobby Jones, Ben Wallace, Steph Curry, Chris Mullin, KJ, Iguodala, Rodman, Kemp, Mason, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber.

Less career WS than Elton Brand, Terry Porter, Tony Parker, Kevin McHale, Walt Frazier, Dikembe Mutombo, Kevin McHale.

More 10 WS seasons than Horace Grant.

He had a lot of support around him in the Cavs years, but that shouldn't diminish his value.

Nance had an underrated career but I don't see him as that undervalued in these. I think disregarding price, he may be more valued than Grant, Schrempf, Sheed, AK, maybe Bobby Jones. That seems reasonable for a player who never made all-NBA

[migya]

Motion for Larry Nance (the original) to get more respect. 17/8/3/1/2. Doesn't cost a lot. Midrange game. Five seasons over 10 WS. 109.6 career WS.

More career WS than Detlef, Hornacek, Manu, Bosh, Laimbeer, Sheed, Cheeks, Melo, Eddie, Tyson, TMac, Bobby Jones, Ben Wallace, Steph Curry, Chris Mullin, KJ, Iguodala, Rodman, Kemp, Mason, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber.

Less career WS than Elton Brand, Terry Porter, Tony Parker, Kevin McHale, Walt Frazier, Dikembe Mutombo, Kevin McHale.

More 10 WS seasons than Horace Grant.

He had a lot of support around him in the Cavs years, but that shouldn't diminish his value.

I hold Nance highly, probably among the top 10 PFs we see in these games. He had a very good midrange game and was a very good rebounder and great shotblocker with low fga.

[Snakebites]

Tiers

LeBron
Jordan

Shaq
Magic

Duncan
Durant
Kareem
Garnett
Robinson
Hakeem

Dirk
Bird
Curry

Kawhi

Kobe
Paul

I take Dirk and Bird over at least some of the guys you list in the tier ahead.

Durant also above his tier, possibly above Shaq.

[Laimbeer]

Tiers

LeBron
Jordan

Shaq
Magic

Duncan
Durant
Kareem
Garnett
Robinson
Hakeem

Dirk
Bird
Curry

Kawhi

Kobe
Paul

I take Dirk and Bird over at least some of the guys you list in the tier ahead.

Durant also above his tier, possibly above Shaq.

People tend to gravitate to Dirk's lack of D and inability to switch too often. Unless he's an obvious choice talent-wise, I tend to avoid him of late.

[8on]

Kawhi Leonard doesn't belong ahead of Kobe and Chris Paul on talent, does he? I get the price to talent ratio and versatility, but I really think you need a better talent to be your best player. he's going too high lately.

Kareem over Duncan in a heartbeat
KG, Robinson and Hakeem over Durant pretty easily
Bird in that tier as well because he's Larry Bird
Curry ahead of Dirk because his peak is better
Dirk/Kawhi/Wade/Paul/Kobe/McGrady as a tier
Wade ahead of Kobe on account of price and the fact that Wade's peak in 09 might be better than 08 Kobe
Karl Malone and Barkley on the last tier

yes, I finally give Dirk credit. it's been a couple years, and I get it now.

[euroleague]

In terms of my list tiers by talent:
1. Wilt
Shaq
MJ

2. Magic
Bird
Lbj (I don’t actually think he belongs here, but I try to compromise for the sake of balance)

2.3
Kareem
Hakeem
Curry

2.6 Erving
KG
Duncan
DRob
Kobe

3. Wade
CP3
Durant
Moses
Barkley
Dirk

3.2
Karl Malone
Kawhi

It’s all about fit, and often FGA, though. Barkley/Dirk may be the same tier, but way easier to build around Dirk.

[Snakebites]

I do understand people having Dirk over Curry.

I don't agree with it personally since there's usually a really good point guard available in the second or third round to a potential Curry drafter, but I understand it at least.

It's hard for me to do a tier since a lot of it does depend on the draft pool, whether we're doing full playoffs, rankings, or hybrid, and how many drafters there are.

For clarity's sake since I feel a lot of people are talking about different lists: this is my tier in terms of how I DRAFT- not necessarily talent-wise.

Lebron
Jordan
Magic
Durant

Are definitely my top 4 picks every time. The order can vary a little bit depending on my mood and what strategy I'm trying for- I usually have an idea of the type of team I want to build. I wouldn't ever pick anyone outside of that top 4 over any of those guys. Lebron as number one is pretty much locked in, as is Jordan over Durant. Might take Magic over Jordan on occasion though.

After that it gets a little muddy.

KG
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Robinson
Dirk

Are usually the next tier. I only take Shaq if I really feel like I have no choice, sometimes he's even lower than that.. I know I've got him lower than other people do but that's really how I feel.

Hakeem is barely on my tier because someone's usually take him by then. I GUESS put him at the top of the next tier, even though by this point he's usually taken.

After that:

Kareem*- If his 70s seasons are available which they usually aren't mark him up to KG level. Some may disagree with that but I worry about 80s Kareem in head to head matchups against other heavy centers and if I have to worry about him in a matchups a low post center isn't worth taking.
Wade
Curry- only because of PG depth, otherwise I'd have him over Wade
CP3
Kawhi

And that's the first round for me assuming all of those players are available. I find it weird people are putting Kobe on these tiers at all when he's never picked in round 1. He's a round 1 talent but he's too expensive and inefficient.

[8on]

the list is from the last page, but here would be my tiers.

Tier 1
LeBron
Magic
Jordan
Kareem. more agile and better in space than Shaq. 77 or 80 Kareem is less expensive than Shaq and probably better at playing defense.

Tier 2
Shaq
Curry - but only if you plan on using 15-16. 14-15 is probably Penny Hardaway level
Durant - we've lost the "Tony Allen can guard him" thing and replaced it with respect. really good at scoring. not going to knock it, no matter what season you use of his five best.
Bird - because perimeter players win these things right now. Larry Bird is way too good to be overlooked, but in the Jordan/Shaq range and doesn't get as much respect. i would really only use 88 Bird on account of how ridiculous he was offensively. i would say 88 Bird is kind of like Dirk, in the sense that he gives you a lot more talent at the 3 or the 4 than anyone you can get later. you can put Kawhi on him, but he's Larry Bird, so good luck with that.
Hakeem
Robinson - 92 if i need the FGA for something else, but i'd be cool with mid 90's as well

Tier 3
Duncan
Barkley - so cheap
Karl
Garnett
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Kawhi - because he's not your best offensive player. he's versatile, but he can't be your top scorer. he has never won a championship even as a number two option, unlike almost all of the other first round talents. it's inexcusable in this range. he's probably closer to Grant Hill or Pippen than Durant or Bird. we really need to figure this out.

[Snakebites]

the list is from the last page, but here would be my tiers.

Tier 1
LeBron
Magic
Jordan
Kareem. more agile and better in space than Shaq. 77 or 80 Kareem is less expensive than Shaq and probably better at playing defense.

Tier 2
Shaq
Curry - but only if you plan on using 15-16. 14-15 is probably Penny Hardaway level
Durant - we've lost the "Tony Allen can guard him" thing and replaced it with respect. really good at scoring. not going to knock it, no matter what season you use of his five best.
Bird - because perimeter players win these things right now. Larry Bird is way too good to be overlooked, but in the Jordan/Shaq range and doesn't get as much respect. i would really only use 88 Bird on account of how ridiculous he was offensively. i would say 88 Bird is kind of like Dirk, in the sense that he gives you a lot more talent at the 3 or the 4 than anyone you can get later. you can put Kawhi on him, but he's Larry Bird, so good luck with that.
Hakeem
Robinson - 92 if i need the FGA for something else, but i'd be cool with mid 90's as well

Tier 3
Duncan
Barkley - so cheap
Karl
Garnett
Dirk
Wade
Paul
Kawhi - because he's not your best offensive player. he's versatile, but he can't be your top scorer. he has never won a championship even as a number two option, unlike almost all of the other first round talents. it's inexcusable in this range. he's probably closer to Grant Hill or Pippen than Durant or Bird. we really need to figure this out.

I don't really personally see any justification for Malone or Barkley over Dirk, personally. At worst he's every bit as good as them but provides a more unique angle for the team.

But hey, that's me.

[ardee]

If we are doing tiers...

LeBron

Bird
Jordan

Magic
Durant
Duncan
Shaq
Kareem (the 1980 season only, assuming this is '80 onward)

Dirk
Robinson
Garnett

Kawhi
Hakeem
Kobe
Wade
Paul
Curry

Yeah, I really don't like Curry in these games, I guess I'm biased because I have had some catastrophic failures building around him.

As for Bird, I'm higher on him than most but I do think he belongs there because his FGAs are fairly similar to LeBron (19.6 vs 17.8), and other than LeBron he might be the most versatile player there is. He provides all the offensive threat of Durant and adds Draymond's playmaking. Can play either forward, underrated defender, and there is basically no player he doesn't fit with. Wade/Bird? Paul/Bird? Bird/Howard? Manu/Bird? Harden/Bird? It all fits works.

With Bird you can build any kind of team you want and unless the other guy has LeBron, Jordan or Shaq you are guaranteed the best player on the court.

[ardee]

Changing gears a bit, who are your favorite supporting players after the first couple rounds?

I think Terry Porter is probably mine, I don't like building around any of the first round PGs (Magic/Curry basically) and he fits with anyone in the backcourt. Porter/LeBron or Porter/Jordan is a dream fit.

[Dr Positivity]

If we are doing tiers...

LeBron

Bird
Jordan

Magic
Durant
Duncan
Shaq
Kareem (the 1980 season only, assuming this is '80 onward)

Dirk
Robinson
Garnett

Kawhi
Hakeem
Kobe
Wade
Paul
Curry

Yeah, I really don't like Curry in these games, I guess I'm biased because I have had some catastrophic failures building around him.

As for Bird, I'm higher on him than most but I do think he belongs there because his FGAs are fairly similar to LeBron (19.6 vs 17.8), and other than LeBron he might be the most versatile player there is. He provides all the offensive threat of Durant and adds Draymond's playmaking. Can play either forward, underrated defender, and there is basically no player he doesn't fit with. Wade/Bird? Paul/Bird? Bird/Howard? Manu/Bird? Harden/Bird? It all fits works.

With Bird you can build any kind of team you want and unless the other guy has LeBron, Jordan or Shaq you are guaranteed the best player on the court.

Bird is underrated on defense but I still feel like he has to built around on that end. For example a combination like Harden and Bird I feel would affect my picks after that as all the other starters would need to be standout defenders for me to feel comfortable. For that reason I would consider players like Kawhi and Durant as easier to build around

[ardee]

If we are doing tiers...

LeBron

Bird
Jordan

Magic
Durant
Duncan
Shaq
Kareem (the 1980 season only, assuming this is '80 onward)

Dirk
Robinson
Garnett

Kawhi
Hakeem
Kobe
Wade
Paul
Curry

Yeah, I really don't like Curry in these games, I guess I'm biased because I have had some catastrophic failures building around him.

As for Bird, I'm higher on him than most but I do think he belongs there because his FGAs are fairly similar to LeBron (19.6 vs 17.8), and other than LeBron he might be the most versatile player there is. He provides all the offensive threat of Durant and adds Draymond's playmaking. Can play either forward, underrated defender, and there is basically no player he doesn't fit with. Wade/Bird? Paul/Bird? Bird/Howard? Manu/Bird? Harden/Bird? It all fits works.

With Bird you can build any kind of team you want and unless the other guy has LeBron, Jordan or Shaq you are guaranteed the best player on the court.

Bird is underrated on defense but I still feel like he has to built around on that end. For example a combination like Harden and Bird I feel would affect my picks after that as all the other starters would need to be standout defenders for me to feel comfortable. For that reason I would consider players like Kawhi and Durant as easier to build around

Perhaps Harden/Bird is extreme, you're right, but moreso because of Harden than Bird.

I think Durant isn't more than marginally better on defense than Bird.

[Fadeaway_J]

If we are doing tiers...

LeBron

Bird
Jordan

Magic
Durant
Duncan
Shaq
Kareem (the 1980 season only, assuming this is '80 onward)

Dirk
Robinson
Garnett

Kawhi
Hakeem
Kobe
Wade
Paul
Curry

Yeah, I really don't like Curry in these games, I guess I'm biased because I have had some catastrophic failures building around him.

As for Bird, I'm higher on him than most but I do think he belongs there because his FGAs are fairly similar to LeBron (19.6 vs 17.8), and other than LeBron he might be the most versatile player there is. He provides all the offensive threat of Durant and adds Draymond's playmaking. Can play either forward, underrated defender, and there is basically no player he doesn't fit with. Wade/Bird? Paul/Bird? Bird/Howard? Manu/Bird? Harden/Bird? It all fits works.

With Bird you can build any kind of team you want and unless the other guy has LeBron, Jordan or Shaq you are guaranteed the best player on the court.

Bird is underrated on defense but I still feel like he has to built around on that end. For example a combination like Harden and Bird I feel would affect my picks after that as all the other starters would need to be standout defenders for me to feel comfortable. For that reason I would consider players like Kawhi and Durant as easier to build around

Perhaps Harden/Bird is extreme, you're right, but moreso because of Harden than Bird.

I think Durant isn't more than marginally better on defense than Bird.

Defensively I think Bird should play more 4 than 3. I'd rather have KD as a wing defender.

[Snakebites]

Bird should be a power forward in these games.

He was an underrated post defender though he'd still struggle against hyper athletic types like KG and Barkley. I still think he presents more problems to the other teams' defense than your own though.

[poopdamoop]

Bird guarded PFs more often than SFs in his prime, he'd be fine at the 4

[Fadeaway_J]

With regards to Kawhi, he excels at two skills that are valued extremely highly in these games: wing defense and outside shooting. I mean, I've tried to expand my views on the importance of individual matchups to the overall outcome, but having Kawhi to throw at the opponent's main threat is a game-changer in most cases. When you package that with being a quality individual scorer, it's a pretty rare combination that fits perfectly with the kind of loaded teams we typically see in these games. He does go higher than I'm comfortable with sometimes (especially when roddy is playing!) but I can understand why people would rather reach for that unique package ahead of a more "talented" player.

[Fadeaway_J]

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Sticky the Experience Level roster thread and unsticky the Duos by Decades one please.

[Fadeaway_J]

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Please sticky the roster thread for the Accolades Cost More game and unsticky the Choose Your Accolades thread.

[Fadeaway_J]

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Please unsticky the roster thread for the Accolades Cost More game.