Kyrie, was he actually more efficient with LeBron?

[Froob]

His raw stats don't seem much different with and without LeBron, interested to see what the advanced stats say about that.

[johnnyballgame]

His numbers really are very, very similar before and with LeBron. You would expect some growth from experience alone being as the before include rookie numbers after he left college with just 19 games under his belt. Then you'd expect an efficiency increase from playing alongside LeBron and Kevin Love. I don't see either, either. Anyone care to explain?

https://labs.statmuse.com/questions/157456c5-9994-47da-aaa7-a9bf2d402368

[NetsDynasty2012]

His numbers really are very, very similar before and with LeBron. You would expect some growth from experience alone being as the before include rookie numbers after he left college with just 19 games under his belt. Then you'd expect an efficiency increase from playing alongside LeBron and Kevin Love. I don't see either, either. Anyone care to explain?

https://labs.statmuse.com/questions/157456c5-9994-47da-aaa7-a9bf2d402368

I mean if you just go by TS%:


Pre-Lebron: 54.8%

Post-Lebron: 57.2%


It doesn't seem like a massive jump, but that's the difference between mediocre efficiency and good.

[Jasen777]

From last season, his offensive rating is way down with LeBron off, his Defensive rating is worse, TS% and EFG% are down.

If I'm doing this right - http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=202681&VsPlayerID=2544

[Cavsfansince84]

His numbers really are very, very similar before and with LeBron. You would expect some growth from experience alone being as the before include rookie numbers after he left college with just 19 games under his belt. Then you'd expect an efficiency increase from playing alongside LeBron and Kevin Love. I don't see either, either. Anyone care to explain?

https://labs.statmuse.com/questions/157456c5-9994-47da-aaa7-a9bf2d402368

Because the only real difference in the shots he was taking was maybe a few more open looks per game. His offensive game and the types of shots he was taking didn't really change much. What mostly changed was just him having much better teammates taking the rest of the shots which meant more wins. Kyrie doesn't really get what it means to be a pg.

[johnnyballgame]

His numbers really are very, very similar before and with LeBron. You would expect some growth from experience alone being as the before include rookie numbers after he left college with just 19 games under his belt. Then you'd expect an efficiency increase from playing alongside LeBron and Kevin Love. I don't see either, either. Anyone care to explain?

https://labs.statmuse.com/questions/157456c5-9994-47da-aaa7-a9bf2d402368

Because the only real difference in the shots he was taking was maybe a few more open looks per game. His offensive game and the types of shots he was taking didn't really change much. What mostly changed was just him having much better teammates taking the rest of the shots which meant more wins. Kyrie doesn't really get what it means to be a pg.

We all get he's a shooting guard in a point guards jersey. And we get that you're angry he requested a trade, but if you take a step back from burning his jersey, what you're saying contradicts itself. "A few more open shots per game" is exactly why there should be an efficiency increase. Making just two more shots out of twenty taken per game is a ten percent increase in field goal percentage. "Having way better teammates" take the rest of the shots means he should have seen some increase in assists even if he's a black hole. And the marked increase in overall team scoring means he should have seen more shots overall, more other counting stats. That's how numbers work. Its a numerical question. Obviously he's still the same guy with the same skills. I bet you didn't even bother to click on the link and look at his actual numbers before and after LeBron, which is the only way to understand how strikingly similar they are.
Knowing the difference in the team he started out on and the one from last year... knowing the difference in him as a rookie and him now being universally thought of as 'one of the best finishers' its really, really perplexing how little change there is in his numbers.

[Cavsfansince84]

We all get he's a shooting guard in a point guards jersey. And we get that you're angry he requested a trade, but if you take a step back from burning his jersey, what you're saying contradicts itself. "A few more open shots per game" is exactly why there should be an efficiency increase. Making just two more shots out of twenty taken per game is a ten percent increase in field goal percentage. "Having way better teammates" take the rest of the shots means he should have seen some increase in assists even if he's a black hole. And the marked increase in overall team scoring means he should have seen more shots overall, more other counting stats. That's how numbers work. Its a numerical question. Obviously he's still the same guy with the same skills. I bet you didn't even bother to click on the link and look at his actual numbers before and after LeBron, which is the only way to understand how strikingly similar they are.
Knowing the difference in the team he started out on and the one from last year... knowing the difference in him as a rookie and him now being universally thought of as 'one of the best finishers' its really, really perplexing how little change there is in his numbers.

1. I'm not really the sort of fan who gets mad at players and burns jerseys.
2. His overall efficiency actually has gone up a bit which is a result of those extra open looks
3. I just know what I see. Kyrie most of the time when he shoots starts with the ball and then dribbles a while then shoots. It hasn't changed much since LeBron joined the team. He just gets a few extra open looks per game.

[johnnyballgame]

We all get he's a shooting guard in a point guards jersey. And we get that you're angry he requested a trade, but if you take a step back from burning his jersey, what you're saying contradicts itself. "A few more open shots per game" is exactly why there should be an efficiency increase. Making just two more shots out of twenty taken per game is a ten percent increase in field goal percentage. "Having way better teammates" take the rest of the shots means he should have seen some increase in assists even if he's a black hole. And the marked increase in overall team scoring means he should have seen more shots overall, more other counting stats. That's how numbers work. Its a numerical question. Obviously he's still the same guy with the same skills. I bet you didn't even bother to click on the link and look at his actual numbers before and after LeBron, which is the only way to understand how strikingly similar they are.
Knowing the difference in the team he started out on and the one from last year... knowing the difference in him as a rookie and him now being universally thought of as 'one of the best finishers' its really, really perplexing how little change there is in his numbers.

1. I'm not really the sort of fan who gets mad at players and burns jerseys.
2. His overall efficiency actually has gone up a bit which is a result of those extra open looks
3. I just know what I see. Kyrie most of the time when he shoots starts with the ball and then dribbles a while then shoots. It hasn't changed much since LeBron joined the team. He just gets a few extra open looks per game.

Well then, thanks for the in depth analysis. "you know what you see" clearly solves the riddle of why Kyrie's stats haven't changed at all since adding LeBron. Moderator, lock up this thread. Its done.
Chris Bosh must be crazy thinking people have to change to play with LeBron. Apparently you still just dribble then shoot although, even if you're a little more open don't make any more shots than you used to.

[Cavsfansince84]

Well then, thanks for the in depth analysis. "you know what you see" clearly solves the riddle of why Kyrie's stats haven't changed at all since adding LeBron. Moderator, lock up this thread. Its done.
Chris Bosh must be crazy thinking people have to change to play with LeBron. Apparently you still just dribble then shoot although, even if you're a little more open don't make any more shots than you used to.

*shrug* Here dude, let me play the world's smallest violin for you so you can properly gauge the amount of pity and sympathy I have for you right now. Can you hear me playing it for you? I am overwhelmed with grief for your victimhood as I am typing this out. Maybe you should ask Kyrie why he still plays the same way and hardly moves at all when he doesn't have the ball. Also his two highest career ts%'s have both come in the last 3 years while playing with LeBron which reflects him getting slightly more open looks at the basket per game which just means you don't know how to judge efficiency.

[johnnyballgame]

Well then, thanks for the in depth analysis. "you know what you see" clearly solves the riddle of why Kyrie's stats haven't changed at all since adding LeBron. Moderator, lock up this thread. Its done.
Chris Bosh must be crazy thinking people have to change to play with LeBron. Apparently you still just dribble then shoot although, even if you're a little more open don't make any more shots than you used to.

*shrug* Here dude, let me play the world's smallest violin for you so you can properly gauge the amount of pity and sympathy I have for you right now. Can you hear me playing it for you? I am overwhelmed with grief for your victimhood as I am typing this out. Maybe you should ask Kyrie why he still plays the same way and hardly moves at all when he doesn't have the ball. Also his two highest career ts%'s have both come in the last 3 years while playing with LeBron which reflects him getting slightly more open looks at the basket per game which just means you don't know how to judge efficiency.

More brilliance from the guru. I'm a victim because you couldn't understand an advanced stat question (posted by someone other than me by the way) needs to be answered with numbers.. or stats? I know you didn't click on the link and read his stats, but did you not read the forum title of "statistical analysis" either? Reading make your brain hurt? I guess "what you see" is the newest stat category. Hilarious.

If anyone wanted to play victim its the poor Cavs fan picking now to jump all over Kyrie after he legitimately asked... just asked... to be traded because he wasn't happy at his employer. He didn't demand to be traded.. didn't threaten a holdout or anything but you came in here acting like he's a terrible player or something.
You sound like Trump. You probably told everyone Kyrie's the greatest and an advantage over Curry when he's on your team during the finals, but after he scorns you by asking for a trade you say he was never good anyway. And after replying to the thread with a stupid answer, three days later you want to write/read/repeat someone else's comment about true shooting percentage. You haven't said anything original in all your posts.. only posting the painfully obvious non-statistical analysis that everyone already understands and didn't ask for in a forum titled "statistical analysis". You're "he usually dribble's a bit and then shoots" observation is next level type stuff and will surely advance the game of basketball. Scouts everywhere are now looking for guys who usually dribble a bit and then shoot. I bet the Warriors targeted Curry and Durant using advanced stats like yours. You sure you're not Mike Fratello? Any relation to Phil Jackson?

[Cavsfansince84]

Well then, thanks for the in depth analysis. "you know what you see" clearly solves the riddle of why Kyrie's stats haven't changed at all since adding LeBron. Moderator, lock up this thread. Its done.
Chris Bosh must be crazy thinking people have to change to play with LeBron. Apparently you still just dribble then shoot although, even if you're a little more open don't make any more shots than you used to.

*shrug* Here dude, let me play the world's smallest violin for you so you can properly gauge the amount of pity and sympathy I have for you right now. Can you hear me playing it for you? I am overwhelmed with grief for your victimhood as I am typing this out. Maybe you should ask Kyrie why he still plays the same way and hardly moves at all when he doesn't have the ball. Also his two highest career ts%'s have both come in the last 3 years while playing with LeBron which reflects him getting slightly more open looks at the basket per game which just means you don't know how to judge efficiency.

More brilliance from the guru. I'm a victim because you couldn't understand an advanced stat question (posted by someone other than me by the way) needs to be answered with numbers.. or stats? I know you didn't click on the link and read his stats, but did you not read the forum title of "statistical analysis" either? Reading make your brain hurt? I guess "what you see" is the newest stat category. Hilarious.

If anyone wanted to play victim its the poor Cavs fan picking now to jump all over Kyrie after he legitimately asked... just asked... to be traded because he wasn't happy at his employer. He didn't demand to be traded.. didn't threaten a holdout or anything but you came in here acting like he's a terrible player or something.
You sound like Trump. You probably told everyone Kyrie's the greatest and an advantage over Curry when he's on your team during the finals, but after he scorns you by asking for a trade you say he was never good anyway. And after replying to the thread with a stupid answer, three days later you want to write/read/repeat someone else's comment about true shooting percentage. You haven't said anything original in all your posts.. only posting the painfully obvious non-statistical analysis that everyone already understands and didn't ask for in a forum titled "statistical analysis". You're "he usually dribble's a bit and then shoots" observation is next level type stuff and will surely advance the game of basketball. Scouts everywhere are now looking for guys who usually dribble a bit and then shoot. I bet the Warriors targeted Curry and Durant using advanced stats like yours. You sure you're not Mike Fratello? Any relation to Phil Jackson?

I'm not reading any more of your nonsense though I can't help but see that you somehow managed to bring Trump into this. lol. wow, you really are triggered. Maybe you need some time away from the internet or something.

[johnnyballgame]

*shrug* Here dude, let me play the world's smallest violin for you so you can properly gauge the amount of pity and sympathy I have for you right now. Can you hear me playing it for you? I am overwhelmed with grief for your victimhood as I am typing this out. Maybe you should ask Kyrie why he still plays the same way and hardly moves at all when he doesn't have the ball. Also his two highest career ts%'s have both come in the last 3 years while playing with LeBron which reflects him getting slightly more open looks at the basket per game which just means you don't know how to judge efficiency.

More brilliance from the guru. I'm a victim because you couldn't understand an advanced stat question (posted by someone other than me by the way) needs to be answered with numbers.. or stats? I know you didn't click on the link and read his stats, but did you not read the forum title of "statistical analysis" either? Reading make your brain hurt? I guess "what you see" is the newest stat category. Hilarious.

If anyone wanted to play victim its the poor Cavs fan picking now to jump all over Kyrie after he legitimately asked... just asked... to be traded because he wasn't happy at his employer. He didn't demand to be traded.. didn't threaten a holdout or anything but you came in here acting like he's a terrible player or something.
You sound like Trump. You probably told everyone Kyrie's the greatest and an advantage over Curry when he's on your team during the finals, but after he scorns you by asking for a trade you say he was never good anyway. And after replying to the thread with a stupid answer, three days later you want to write/read/repeat someone else's comment about true shooting percentage. You haven't said anything original in all your posts.. only posting the painfully obvious non-statistical analysis that everyone already understands and didn't ask for in a forum titled "statistical analysis". You're "he usually dribble's a bit and then shoots" observation is next level type stuff and will surely advance the game of basketball. Scouts everywhere are now looking for guys who usually dribble a bit and then shoot. I bet the Warriors targeted Curry and Durant using advanced stats like yours. You sure you're not Mike Fratello? Any relation to Phil Jackson?

I'm not reading any more of your nonsense though I can't help but see that you somehow managed to bring Trump into this. lol. wow, you really are triggered. Maybe you need some time away from the internet or something.

Yes, I'm the one who came in to the conversation all emotional because Kyrie is leaving my favorite team. OMG. What will I do with all my Kyrie jerseys and shoes? I'm triggered and you're not reading my stuff anymore... not that you read in the first place, remember you missed the whole 'statistical analysis' thing... but like the child you are you had to post again because you need the last word, right? Go ahead.. I know you just can't resist. I wanted to make you work for it a bit though by posting this.

[Cavsfansince84]

Yes, I'm the one who came in to the conversation all emotional because Kyrie is leaving my favorite team. OMG. What will I do with all my Kyrie jerseys and shoes? I'm triggered and you're not reading my stuff anymore... not that you read in the first place, remember you missed the whole 'statistical analysis' thing... but like the child you are you had to post again because you need the last word, right? Go ahead.. I know you just can't resist. I wanted to make you work for it a bit though by posting this.

I don't have any emotions towards Kyrie one way or another. That is your own bull you are wanting to project on me for lack of any real argument once I simply asserted that he was slightly more efficient playing with LeBron. I haven't bought any Cavs gear in ages either, especially since I moved out of state. Then on top of that acting even more like a victim on the possibility that I might respond to more of your baseless accusations. I don't know why you are so victimized by my saying what I have here but that's own issues to work through. Its not my concern. As I've said before, I think the Cavs are better off trading Kyrie for picks than trying to build around him anyhow.

[johnnyballgame]

Yes, I'm the one who came in to the conversation all emotional because Kyrie is leaving my favorite team. OMG. What will I do with all my Kyrie jerseys and shoes? I'm triggered and you're not reading my stuff anymore... not that you read in the first place, remember you missed the whole 'statistical analysis' thing... but like the child you are you had to post again because you need the last word, right? Go ahead.. I know you just can't resist. I wanted to make you work for it a bit though by posting this.

I don't have any emotions towards Kyrie one way or another. That is your own bull you are wanting to project on me for lack of any real argument once I simply asserted that he was slightly more efficient playing with LeBron. I haven't bought any Cavs gear in ages either, especially since I moved out of state. Then on top of that acting even more like a victim on the possibility that I might respond to more of your baseless accusations. I don't know why you are so victimized by my saying what I have here but that's own issues to work through. Its not my concern. As I've said before, I think the Cavs are better off trading Kyrie for picks than trying to build around him anyhow.

Yeah, I don't have any point. But I'm obviously pretty good at recognizing tendencies, reactions and maturity levels of the immature as I correctly surmised you were the type who believes having the last word means you win, even if your entire argument was baseless and stupid.

Oops. I just made you have to post again, didn't I?

[Cavsfansince84]

Yes, I'm the one who came in to the conversation all emotional because Kyrie is leaving my favorite team. OMG. What will I do with all my Kyrie jerseys and shoes? I'm triggered and you're not reading my stuff anymore... not that you read in the first place, remember you missed the whole 'statistical analysis' thing... but like the child you are you had to post again because you need the last word, right? Go ahead.. I know you just can't resist. I wanted to make you work for it a bit though by posting this.

I don't have any emotions towards Kyrie one way or another. That is your own bull you are wanting to project on me for lack of any real argument once I simply asserted that he was slightly more efficient playing with LeBron. I haven't bought any Cavs gear in ages either, especially since I moved out of state. Then on top of that acting even more like a victim on the possibility that I might respond to more of your baseless accusations. I don't know why you are so victimized by my saying what I have here but that's own issues to work through. Its not my concern. As I've said before, I think the Cavs are better off trading Kyrie for picks than trying to build around him anyhow.

Yeah, I don't have any point. But I'm obviously pretty good at recognizing tendencies, reactions and maturity levels of the immature as I correctly surmised you were the type who believes having the last word means you win, even if your entire argument was baseless and stupid.

Oops. I just made you have to post again, didn't I?

Well if you keep throwing out baseless accusations you can't exactly be that surprised when someone replies can you? I could have easily said the exact same thing to you all along about making you reply because you want to have the last word. The only person here even making an issue of that is you which leads me to think you are actually the one obsessed with being right and having the last word on something. All I even did was say that Kyrie has been more efficient playing with LeBron(which is backed up in his stats) and you for w/e reason completely lost it and went full troll mode. Now you are acting like a victim again because I keep replying to the bull **** you put out. If you don't want a reply then stop putting it out there.

[johnnyballgame]

Oh yeah, you made a great post. You said "Kyrie usually dribbles a bit when he has the ball and then shoots". This is revisionist history. Go back and edit your posts so you don't look bad when you say you contributed positively to the conversation.
And of course, I really, really need to have the last word. I'm not at all just proving the point I made three posts ago. Actually, you're proving it. Thank you for once again proving my point. No one can even take anything you say seriously. You said three posts ago you weren't reading anything I post. You lied!

Ooops. Now you gotta post again!

[sniper236]

His numbers really are very, very similar before and with LeBron. You would expect some growth from experience alone being as the before include rookie numbers after he left college with just 19 games under his belt. Then you'd expect an efficiency increase from playing alongside LeBron and Kevin Love. I don't see either, either. Anyone care to explain?

https://labs.statmuse.com/questions/157456c5-9994-47da-aaa7-a9bf2d402368

Because the only real difference in the shots he was taking was maybe a few more open looks per game. His offensive game and the types of shots he was taking didn't really change much. What mostly changed was just him having much better teammates taking the rest of the shots which meant more wins. Kyrie doesn't really get what it means to be a pg.

This developed into name-calling but Cavsfansince84 nailed it on this post.

He does only get a few more open looks a game. LeBron and Kyrie seem to operate exclusively and not as a team. When one has the ball, the other stands still on the weak side.

When Kyrie has the ball, players hedge off LeBron the same as anyone else - so he gains little benefit in that regard. When LeBron has the ball, Kyrie's defender rarely leaves Kyrie because he's lethal as a spot-up shooter.

There's also the issue of the Cavs playing to LeBron's strength of a half-court set with shooters around. Part of the reason Kyrie is disgruntled at the moment is that the team is catered to LeBron. Kyrie would benefit from a run-and-gun offense where the ball (and therefore defense) is constantly moving so the opposition is more vulnerable to penetration when Kyrie gets the ball.

It's worrying that his efficiency has only improved slightly since his initial years in the league (and his shot selection is still suspect). But I guess we'll see if his stats were a product of playing on a LeBron-shaped team and if he comes into his own with teammates and a style that suits his game better.

[Cavsfansince84]

Oh yeah, you made a great post. You said "Kyrie usually dribbles a bit when he has the ball and then shoots". This is revisionist history. Go back and edit your posts so you don't look bad when you say you contributed positively to the conversation.
And of course, I really, really need to have the last word. I'm not at all just proving the point I made three posts ago. Actually, you're proving it. Thank you for once again proving my point. No one can even take anything you say seriously. You said three posts ago you weren't reading anything I post. You lied!

Ooops. Now you gotta post again!

lol at you adding another post to reply to me but not having the balls to even actually reply to me while denying its all because you want to have the last word. That's exactly why you didn't have the balls to do a real reply. Because you wanted to sneak that in to feed your need to have the last reply. I keep replying not because I need to have the last word but because you keep stating pure bull ****as though it were fact. Kyrie plays the same way that he did before LeBron got there. All he gets now is a few more open looks per game. Anyone who watches the games can know this. You just for w/e reason can't seem to understand it or want someone else to be to blame for it.

[Duke4life831]

Hes more efficient from the field, his two healthy seasons with Lebron he had a 53 eFG% compared to his career high of 51% before Lebron. I think one thing that works against Kyrie when it comes to his efficiency numbers like TS% is he doesnt get calls from the ref. You dont see too many teams that have multiple players get the star treatment from the refs. Kyrie's FTR this year was just .231, that is really low for a player his caliber and someone that attacks the basket as much as he does. If he had the same FTR as say Lillard who attacks the rim at the same rate but has a .366 FTR, I think Kyrie's TS% would be 60% or higher. So he is more efficient from the field but doesnt get to the line as much as others.

But in all honesty I dont think Lebron has helped his efficiency all that much. Kyrie as a rookie had a 51 eFG% and a 56 TS%. I dont think its crazy to think Kyrie has improved since then to the point of a +2% increase in those two categories. Kyrie is a ball dominant player and Lebron doesnt have the biggest gravity without the ball, so I dont think its a stretch to think he could match his efficiency if he went to a different team. To me the big question is if he was asked to be the primary ball handler and facilitator again, could he bump his assists up from 6 to say 8?

[The-Power]

Kyrie's eFG% with LeBron: 52.6. His TS%: 56.3. USG%: 26.5. 8578 Possessions.
Kyrie's eFG% without LeBron: 51.7. His TS%: 56.9. USG%: 40.3. 2443 Possessions.

Data for the last three seasons, courtesy of nbawowy.com.

So no, Irving isn't more efficient with LeBron. He's actually slightly more efficient as a scorer without LeBron, at a much higher volume, as a result of a higher FTr and slightly more efficient shooting from the line. And this shouldn't really be a surprise given the way Irving approaches the game. He basically does what he does with and without LeBron, only the volume differs.