At mid-season, is Brendan Haywood the 2nd best C in the EC?

[fugop]

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all hail the ultimate homer

What's homerish about this? Maybe as a proportion of wins, Eddy Curry is in second, as his occasional good games seem to correlate pretty highly with NY's wins. It's just that his occasional good games are considerably rarer than Haywood's, so in absolute numbers, he's behind.

Okafor is probably close, as he's capable of dominating performances on the boards, which isn't something Haywood is known for.

Haywood doesn't do anything gaudy, but he's a solid statistical producer and an outstanding defender, both man and help.

[celticfan42487]

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You really don't have to worry about Brendan making the all-star team. It's virtually impossible. Plus, he isn't on the ballot.

I read this and thought well who else could they list, and noticed why everyone was saying Rasheed and J'Oneal at Center. So I guess they did just make room for an extra foward.

Only guy I would sub out is ZaZa for Haywood.

I forgot about Okafor, Bogut, and Horford though, that's a decent list of competition.

[RoyceDa59]

Surely Dalembert, Big Ben and Shaq are all more effective than Haywood, although he has been having a career season.

[barelyawake]

Surely Dalembert, Big Ben and Shaq are all more effective than Haywood, although he has been having a career season.

By surely you mean that the past would state that that must be the case. The problem is it simply isn't true this season. Again, the reason why there is this debate is preconcieved notions. Not the truth of what is happening this season. Haywood has developed a great deal with our new shooting coach. You can call me a "homer" all you wish. It doesn't change the case that the Wiz have the record they have in large part (several games in greater part than AJ) because of Haywood's contributions on both ends of the floor. He is winning games.

[WadeKnicks2010]

Jermaine O'Neal is listed as Center isn't he? As is Okafor? If so this discussion is already over.

[Hawaii]

I'm a Wizards fan, and I have a hard time believing that Brendan's the 2nd best center in the EC. He is, however, having a great year and I am proud of him for playing the way he has after being given the time. He's up there, just not 2nd best.

[amcoolio]

Okafor's had a down year, but he would still make it in over Haywood (and even then Okafor's numbers aren't that bad). Plus, Nazr Mohammad has had Haywood-like numbers since coming to the Bobcats.

[skones]

It's amazing how PER is being used so heavily in this thread. At times it can be a helpful statistic, but in no way shape or form is it the end all, be all, authority in judging who is the best player.

[NCHeels2008]

It's amazing how PER is being used so heavily in this thread. At times it can be a helpful statistic, but in no way shape or form is it the end all, be all, authority in judging who is the best player.

you should be glad they are using PER it hides Boguts defensive deficiencies compared to Haywood

[skones]

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you should be glad they are using PER it hides Boguts defensive deficiencies compared to Haywood

hides? Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Bogut has become a very good defender. In fact, PER skews that. Due to our guards defensive deficiencies, he's had to help leaving his man open extremely often. Is he on Haywood's defensive level? No, but he's hardly a slouch on that end.

[Hail2theRedskin]

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hides? Apparently you haven't been paying attention. Bogut has become a very good defender. In fact, PER skews that. Due to our guards defensive deficiencies, he's had to help leaving his man open extremely often. Is he on Haywood's defensive level? No, but he's hardly a slouch on that end.

Bogut is slightly above average on Defence...haywood is arguably top 3 in the league not only at the center postition but counting all bigmen too. His main problem is his rebounding. He comes over for weekside blocks so much that it hurts his rebounding position.

[Phobo_Phile]

Sheed has started at C all season, and is on the ballot as such. I gotta think that he comes before Haywood. Though that double double is impressive admittedly.

[skones]

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Bogut is slightly above average on Defence...haywood is arguably top 3 in the league not only at the center postition but counting all bigmen too. His main problem is his rebounding. He comes over for weekside blocks so much that it hurts his rebounding position.

Ok, Bogut has made great strides on that end seeing as how he was a sieve last season. I personally think he's a little better than "slightly above average," but that's besides the point. If you think Haywood is top 3 defensively out of all big men you're flat out DELUSIONAL. Hell he's probably not even top three at his own position.

[PrimeTime21]

Dalembert is the only other center in the East (besides Howard) to be averaging a double double and he is top 4 in blocks. He's been playing out of his mind as of late.

[Kosar86]

Here are the pace-adjusted per 40 numbers:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO   PF  TS%  PER   
howard,dwigh 22.5 15.1  1.5  1.0  2.6  3.5  3.4 .624 24.7   
haywood,bren 15.6 11.6  1.2  0.7  2.6  2.2  4.4 .593 19.1   
o'neal,shaqu 20.1 11.2  1.9  0.9  2.4  4.2  5.8 .580 18.4   
okafor,emeka 15.6 12.5  0.8  1.3  2.2  2.2  3.9 .538 17.6   
mohammed,naz 16.7 13.5  1.5  1.3  1.5  2.6  6.2 .547 17.4   
wallace,rash 17.1  9.7  2.5  1.7  2.0  1.6  3.9 .522 17.2   
dalembert,sa 14.1 12.5  0.7  0.4  3.2  2.4  4.3 .581 17.1   
bogut,andrew 15.8 10.8  2.8  0.9  2.0  2.6  4.6 .545 16.7   
curry,eddy   21.1  7.8  0.8  0.4  0.8  3.1  3.9 .560 16.3   
o'neal,jerma 18.5  8.6  3.1  0.7  2.7  2.9  3.9 .492 16.1   
foster,jeff   9.5 13.6  2.4  0.9  0.4  1.0  4.2 .530 14.8   
horford,al   11.9 13.1  1.5  1.2  1.4  2.6  4.9 .532 13.4   
nesterovic,r 10.8 10.3  2.1  0.8  1.4  1.7  4.0 .471 12.4   
wallace,ben   5.5 11.1  2.5  1.8  2.2  1.2  2.2 .357 12.1   
perkins,kend 11.2  9.2  1.6  0.8  1.9  2.9  4.9 .601 11.8   
collins,jaso  3.4  5.4  1.3  0.6  0.4  1.4  6.5 .434  2.1

Haywood puts up better numbers than every East center except Howard. He also the best among all East centers in the most important facet of the game not measured by numbers: position defense.

The only real argument against Haywood is that he plays 27 minutes a game. (He could play more, but the Wizards have a pretty good, developing backup center in Blatche.) I can understand others favoring guys who are playing nearly as well, over more minutes, but it's not like there's anybody in the East playing 37 minutes a game (except Howard). Bogut and Dalembert play 33 minutes, JO plays 32, Rasheed plays 31, Z plays 30.

The only guy in the East who conceivably deserves an all-star bid over Haywood is Rasheed. Rasheed's numbers aren't THAT far off, he also plays exceptional position defense, and he helps out his offense a little more by spreading the floor. And his team is winning a ton.

Where is Ilgauskus?

[nate33]

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Where is Ilgauskus?

Sorry. I updated the list to include personal fouls and I accidentally dropped off Ilgauskas. It's fixed now.

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO   PF  TS%  PER
howard,dwigh 22.5 15.1  1.5  1.0  2.6  3.5  3.4 .624 24.7
haywood,bren 15.6 11.6  1.2  0.7  2.6  2.2  4.4 .593 19.1
o'neal,shaqu 20.1 11.2  1.9  0.9  2.4  4.2  5.8 .580 18.4
ilgauskas,zy 17.6 12.9  1.6  0.7  1.9  2.5  4.5 .518 18.0
okafor,emeka 15.6 12.5  0.8  1.3  2.2  2.2  3.9 .538 17.6
mohammed,naz 16.7 13.5  1.5  1.3  1.5  2.6  6.2 .547 17.4
wallace,rash 17.1  9.7  2.5  1.7  2.0  1.6  3.9 .522 17.2
dalembert,sa 14.1 12.5  0.7  0.4  3.2  2.4  4.3 .581 17.1
bogut,andrew 15.8 10.8  2.8  0.9  2.0  2.6  4.6 .545 16.7
curry,eddy   21.1  7.8  0.8  0.4  0.8  3.1  3.9 .560 16.3
o'neal,jerma 18.5  8.6  3.1  0.7  2.7  2.9  3.9 .492 16.1
foster,jeff   9.5 13.6  2.4  0.9  0.4  1.0  4.2 .530 14.8
horford,al   11.9 13.1  1.5  1.2  1.4  2.6  4.9 .532 13.4
nesterovic,r 10.8 10.3  2.1  0.8  1.4  1.7  4.0 .471 12.4
wallace,ben   5.5 11.1  2.5  1.8  2.2  1.2  2.2 .357 12.1
perkins,kend 11.2  9.2  1.6  0.8  1.9  2.9  4.9 .601 11.8
collins,jaso  3.4  5.4  1.3  0.6  0.4  1.4  6.5 .434  2.1

[T.Duncan21]

It's sad that Haywood is probably the 2nd best center in the East right now. I'm sorry but the drop off is far too great to the 2nd best center so as a result, I would not put him on the all star team. Just like how there's a big gap between the 1st/2nd and 3rd best PG in the East (Kidd/Billups to Calderon). In that case, I would put Chris Bosh as the backup Center for the East and Jamison as the backup PF. No way would WAS have 3 guys on the allstar squad assuming that Jamison and Butler are already locks.

I see the backups for the East team being:

Bosh
Jamison
Butler
Billups
Peirce
Joe Johnson
The last spot being a toss up between Josh Smith/RJ/VC

- Rip might make it because he plays on a winning team but IMO... Rip is and has never been an allstar calibre player.
- Ray Allen has played like crap this season and does not deserve to make the team but who knows... practically the entire DET roster made the allstar team when they shouldn't have so anything could happen
- Redd is a borderline all star player but I don't see him making the team because MIL has gotten no exposure or hype at all so he's been taking a back seat all year.
- Gerald Wallace I feel should be a strong candidate for the last spot along with J-Smith, RJ, VC. CHA is a team that I see putting together a good run and possibly take the last spot in the East. Nazr was a solid addition to that team. But I don't see him making it because of his teams record and the lack of hype he gets.

[nate33]

Dalembert is the only other center in the East (besides Howard) to be averaging a double double and he is top 4 in blocks. He's been playing out of his mind as of late.

I like Dalembert and I always stick up for him on the trade board when other teams refer to him as a deadweight contract. Dalembert has always been a good rebounder and shotblocker and his having a good season.

The only knock against Dalembert is that I don't consider him to be quite as good of a post defender. And his b-ball IQ is a bit low. Statisitically Haywood has a small edge in PER as well, mostly due to his slightly higher scoring with slightly more efficiency.

Overall, the difference between Haywood and Dalembert is small. They're both rock-solid, underrated centers. I gotta give Haywood a small edge right now though. His per minute numbers are slightly better, his defense is slightly better, and his team is doing quite a bit better.

[nate33]

It's sad that Haywood is probably the 2nd best center in the East right now. I'm sorry but the drop off is far too great to the 2nd best center so as a result, I would not put him on the all star team. Just like how there's a big gap between the 1st/2nd and 3rd best PG in the East (Kidd/Billups to Calderon). In that case, I would put Chris Bosh as the backup Center for the East and Jamison as the backup PF. No way would WAS have 3 guys on the allstar squad assuming that Jamison and Butler are already locks.

I don't disagree. I have no problems with selecting one of the numerous quality forwards in the East instead of taking a second-tier center like Haywood. Haywood certainly doesn't deserve to go over a guy like Paul Pierce. It also doesn't seem right to send three Wizards to the all star game when they're barely above .500.

If you look at the All-Star game as merely a reward for achievement, then the East should send an extra forward and put Bosh at center. However, if you are trying to win the all-star game against a stacked West squad full of good big men, then you can argue that Haywood would be the better selection.

[Bernman]

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you should be glad they are using PER it hides Boguts defensive deficiencies compared to Haywood

Really? Where does PER include charges? Because Bogut probably takes the most charges of anybody in the NBA. Charges essentially equate to stealing the basketball. So he should have about 2-3 more steals on his total. He's not really a defensively deficient player. Would your perception of Bogut be a little different if he was selected 20th in the draft, like Haywood, instead of 1st?