Rudy Gobert DPOY

[UcanUwill]

Wemby robbed I fear.

Robbed, huh? You think a player on a 22-win team (5th worst record) deserves to win DPOY?

Personally, this time I do. All arguments, the defensive rating with him on and off, all AI tracking data, all were presented. It comes to values, do you reward winning or do you simple reward best defensive player. I would have voted Wemby first, because I reward best defensive player, but I do not have huge gripe with Gobert. If somone else won it, then maybe I would have been mad.

[UcanUwill]

Minnesota looking absolutely dominant Defensively last game against the defending champs without Gobert on the floor speaks volumes. Rudy had 3 other players on his team ranked in the Top-20 Defensively this season.

Meanwhile the Spurs dropped from the #4 ranked Defense in the league when Wemby was on the floor to #28 (!!) when he sat lol. That’s insane. Wemby also lead the league in Blocks & Stocks by a HUGE margin, as well as Steals for a Center, lest we forget. Robbery of the century unfortunately.

Read on Twitter

Just because Wemby had worse teammates doesn't mean he is a better defensive player.

Focusing on that stuff is kinda immaterial

How the f Wemby having worse teammate improve his defensive stats? I mean yes, it improves on/off stat and only that stat, but I think it is there to show why that team was bottom feeder, despite having most dominant defensive player in the world.

[UcanUwill]

Bill Simmons has a lot of good takes and a lot of bad takes but one of his takes I absolutely love is the idea of meaningful basketball mattering for things like all NBA and MVP and it applies here.

The Spurs were awful and I loved Wemby getting better and better as the year went on but he didn't play a single minute of meaningful basketball. He anchored a defense for a team that most other teams took for granted as win, which is a good bet considering they won as many games with Wemby as without him. They were getting other teams B and C effort.

Meanwhile Rudy was anchoring the defense for a team who was the 1 seed for a large part of the season getting the best shot of playoff teams trying to move up in the standings. I get there's no stat for that but it's got to mean something.

I'm just not a fan of giving major individual awards to guys who don't play any "must win" basketball all year long and that's pretty much every lottery team.

Very good point and I agree with that even as a Wembanyama stan. Personally, I have zero issue with Gobert winning, well deserved, and it was public secret he wins, most voters who have platforms did not hide they voted Gobert first...
Still tho, Wembanyama is freaking crazy.

[zimpy27]

Minnesota looking absolutely dominant Defensively last game against the defending champs without Gobert on the floor speaks volumes. Rudy had 3 other players on his team ranked in the Top-20 Defensively this season.

Meanwhile the Spurs dropped from the #4 ranked Defense in the league when Wemby was on the floor to #28 (!!) when he sat lol. That’s insane. Wemby also lead the league in Blocks & Stocks by a HUGE margin, as well as Steals for a Center, lest we forget. Robbery of the century unfortunately.

Read on Twitter

Just because Wemby had worse teammates doesn't mean he is a better defensive player.

Focusing on that stuff is kinda immaterial

How the f Wemby having worse teammate improve his defensive stats? I mean yes, it improves on/off stat and only that stat, but I think it is there to show why that team was bottom feeder, despite having most dominant defensive player in the world.

It should certainly help his block numbers. Better perimeter defenders wouldn't give as many block opportunities.

But yeah if anything, Wembys chance for DPOY improves with better defensive teammates.

[firedavidkahn]

Minnesota looking absolutely dominant Defensively last game against the defending champs without Gobert on the floor speaks volumes. Rudy had 3 other players on his team ranked in the Top-20 Defensively this season.

Meanwhile the Spurs dropped from the #4 ranked Defense in the league when Wemby was on the floor to #28 (!!) when he sat lol. That’s insane. Wemby also lead the league in Blocks & Stocks by a HUGE margin, as well as Steals for a Center, lest we forget. Robbery of the century unfortunately.

Read on Twitter

Just because Wemby had worse teammates doesn't mean he is a better defensive player.

Focusing on that stuff is kinda immaterial

How the f Wemby having worse teammate improve his defensive stats? I mean yes, it improves on/off stat and only that stat, but I think it is there to show why that team was bottom feeder, despite having most dominant defensive player in the world.

The on/off defensive rating, for just one example.

Same thing happened to MVP level players who are playing on stacked teams. They get "penalized" because they also happen to have great teammates vs. the other (maybe very slightly worse player) playing with Scrubs.

[CD_41]

I'm a huge Wemby fan, but Gobert deserved this one.
Wemby will get there, but Gobert is playing so smart and experienced that I'd trust him more for now.

Starting next year, it is Wembys crown to lose.

[UcanUwill]

Just because Wemby had worse teammates doesn't mean he is a better defensive player.

Focusing on that stuff is kinda immaterial

How the f Wemby having worse teammate improve his defensive stats? I mean yes, it improves on/off stat and only that stat, but I think it is there to show why that team was bottom feeder, despite having most dominant defensive player in the world.

The on/off defensive rating, for just one example.

Same thing happened to MVP level players who are playing on stacked teams. They get "penalized" because they also happen to have great teammates vs. the other (maybe very slightly worse player) playing with Scrubs.

For MVP, in my opinion, on surface, stars with greatest teammates often do not need to be as valuable, and arent as valuable because of it, they can be saved up more, and they dont need to give it all as much. So yes, I would penelize a guy if he plays with 4 all stars, especially if the competition is as fierce as it is now, and some guys wield astonishing results with less talent surrounding them. Like this year, Tatum is in MVP talks, he is not the most valuable player in a league, he is simply best guy on stacked team, he is not as valuable as some other guys, but thats my opinion since measuring that is not exact science.

But anyhow, voters always rewarded winning, and I am not saying winning shouldn't be rewarded, because its the last and only real goal, but in team sport, to draw a line where team thing ends and where individual valuability begins, is hard and arbitrary.

Anyhow, a lot of stats favor Wembanyama, because he is great and probably the best, not because his teammates are worse, and if anything, his case and most advanced srats can only suffer, because of it. This is probably the first time I hear a claim guy has better defensive metrics because his team is bad...

[firedavidkahn]

How the f Wemby having worse teammate improve his defensive stats? I mean yes, it improves on/off stat and only that stat, but I think it is there to show why that team was bottom feeder, despite having most dominant defensive player in the world.

The on/off defensive rating, for just one example.

Same thing happened to MVP level players who are playing on stacked teams. They get "penalized" because they also happen to have great teammates vs. the other (maybe very slightly worse player) playing with Scrubs.

For MVP, in my opinion, on surface, stars with greatest teammates often do not need to be as valuable, and arent as valuable because of it, they can be saved up more, and they dont need to give it all as much. So yes, I would penelize a guy if he plays with 4 all stars, especially if the competition is as fierce as it is now, and some guys wield astonishing results with less talent surrounding them. Like this year, Tatum is in MVP talks, he is not the most valuable player in a league, he is simply best guy on stacked team, he is not as valuable as some other guys, but thats my opinion since measuring that is not exact science.

But anyhow, voters always rewarded winning, and I am not saying winning shouldn't be rewarded, because its the last and only real goal, but in team sport, to draw a line where team thing ends and where individual valuability begins, is hard and arbitrary.

Anyhow, a lot of stats favor Wembanyama, because he is great and probably the best, not because his teammates are worse, and if anything, his case and most advanced srats can only suffer, because of it. This is probably the first time I hear a claim guy has better defensive metrics because his team is bad...

On/off numbers are literally ALWAYS going to favor great players who play with terrible teammates. 99.9% of the time. It's literally a side effect of how the stat is created and tracked.

[svart]

Twitter is having a field day with this. Majority of the comments under every post regarding this announcement are saying Wemby was robbed. Twitter knows ball.

twitter knows shyte.

well deserved, congrats to rudy.

and give some sugar to all those salty spurs fans. it's more to defense than individual stats in some cases.

[UcanUwill]

The on/off defensive rating, for just one example.

Same thing happened to MVP level players who are playing on stacked teams. They get "penalized" because they also happen to have great teammates vs. the other (maybe very slightly worse player) playing with Scrubs.

For MVP, in my opinion, on surface, stars with greatest teammates often do not need to be as valuable, and arent as valuable because of it, they can be saved up more, and they dont need to give it all as much. So yes, I would penelize a guy if he plays with 4 all stars, especially if the competition is as fierce as it is now, and some guys wield astonishing results with less talent surrounding them. Like this year, Tatum is in MVP talks, he is not the most valuable player in a league, he is simply best guy on stacked team, he is not as valuable as some other guys, but thats my opinion since measuring that is not exact science.

But anyhow, voters always rewarded winning, and I am not saying winning shouldn't be rewarded, because its the last and only real goal, but in team sport, to draw a line where team thing ends and where individual valuability begins, is hard and arbitrary.

Anyhow, a lot of stats favor Wembanyama, because he is great and probably the best, not because his teammates are worse, and if anything, his case and most advanced srats can only suffer, because of it. This is probably the first time I hear a claim guy has better defensive metrics because his team is bad...

On/off numbers are literally ALWAYS going to favor great players who play with terrible teammates. 99.9% of the time. It's literally a side effect of how the stat is created.

Yes, and I have mentioned that stat. But even then it is not as simple, because teammates is just half a factor, the other half a factor is the opponent. If AD faces Jokic mostly, while Christian Wood faces Zeke Naji mostly, Wood can get better on off metrics than AD easily.

[firedavidkahn]

For MVP, in my opinion, on surface, stars with greatest teammates often do not need to be as valuable, and arent as valuable because of it, they can be saved up more, and they dont need to give it all as much. So yes, I would penelize a guy if he plays with 4 all stars, especially if the competition is as fierce as it is now, and some guys wield astonishing results with less talent surrounding them. Like this year, Tatum is in MVP talks, he is not the most valuable player in a league, he is simply best guy on stacked team, he is not as valuable as some other guys, but thats my opinion since measuring that is not exact science.

But anyhow, voters always rewarded winning, and I am not saying winning shouldn't be rewarded, because its the last and only real goal, but in team sport, to draw a line where team thing ends and where individual valuability begins, is hard and arbitrary.

Anyhow, a lot of stats favor Wembanyama, because he is great and probably the best, not because his teammates are worse, and if anything, his case and most advanced srats can only suffer, because of it. This is probably the first time I hear a claim guy has better defensive metrics because his team is bad...

On/off numbers are literally ALWAYS going to favor great players who play with terrible teammates. 99.9% of the time. It's literally a side effect of how the stat is created.

Yes, and I have mentioned that stat. But even then it is not as simple, because teammates is just half a factor, the other half a factor is the opponent. If AD faces Jokic mostly, while Christian Wood faces Zeke Naji mostly, Wood can get better on off metrics than AD easily.

Now you are starting to understand why on/off numbers are exceedingly heavily dependent on your teammates and in vacuum pretty much useless to compare players without looking at context.

Glad we had this talk

[UcanUwill]

On/off numbers are literally ALWAYS going to favor great players who play with terrible teammates. 99.9% of the time. It's literally a side effect of how the stat is created.

Yes, and I have mentioned that stat. But even then it is not as simple, because teammates is just half a factor, the other half a factor is the opponent. If AD faces Jokic mostly, while Christian Wood faces Zeke Naji mostly, Wood can get better on off metrics than AD easily.

Now you are starting to understand why on/off numbers are exceedingly heavily dependent on your teammates and in vacuum pretty much useless to compare players without looking at context.

Glad we had this talk

Did you even read what I initialy wrote to you? I opened this debate saying on/off stat is improved cause of his sub, but what are other stats that improve?


So now I understand what I already stated when I even started talking with you? What? I say on/off stats improve, and only that stat, and your response, yes, his on/off stats improve - I win.

????

I already stated why on/off stats were even presented, to show why he didn't win many games, since it paints a good picture. Spurs were elite with him and terrible without him, hense the record.

I mean ok, block numbers could improve with lesser perimeter defense, but Wembanyama is such psyhological pressence, it is really hard to believe he averages as much blocks as he does. I guess we always can look at it both ways, and that his hype made some guys really try to score on him, and thats how he got some of his ridiculous block number. But that is grassing for straws. He is simply the best rim protector by a good margin.

[ChiTownHero1992]

Was really hoping Wemby would win but completely understand the Gobert pick...as my dad used to say not angry just disappointed lol

[Optimus_Steel]

Anyone who says Wemby is just going by highlights.

[Myth]

Just because Wemby had worse teammates doesn't mean he is a better defensive player.

Focusing on that stuff is kinda immaterial

How the f Wemby having worse teammate improve his defensive stats? I mean yes, it improves on/off stat and only that stat, but I think it is there to show why that team was bottom feeder, despite having most dominant defensive player in the world.

It should certainly help his block numbers. Better perimeter defenders wouldn't give as many block opportunities.

Yes and no. Good perimeter defenders don't simply stop players from driving by, they also steer the ball handler into post defenders.

[karch34]

Was really hoping Wemby would win but completely understand the Gobert pick...as my dad used to say not angry just disappointed lol

Completely unrelated. Caleb and Odunze. You have no disappointment.

[Irishniner]

So, using cleaningtheglass stats, the wolves had the best Drating by 2.6 point over the 2nd best team. The difference between them and the 2nd best defense was the same as the difference between the 2nd defense and the 11th.

In the last 21 seasons, their lead of 2.6 points as the best defense for the season over 2nd place is the second best gap to second place. Rudy deserves a huge amount of credit for how good they are.

Looking at Rudy's career, once he became a starter, Utah became one of the best defenses in the league for a period and hes the centrepiece of this great Wolves defense and the main driver of it.

[FreeBird23]

Well deserved once again.

[brutalitops]

I'm rooting for Rudy to get a ring, not because I'm a Minnesota fan but because it will literally break Shaq and Green

[ChipotleWest]

Well deserved once again.

I mean, I'm not trying to take it all away from him but the best adjustment Wolves made was putting KAT on Jokic instead of Gobert.