At mid-season, is Brendan Haywood the 2nd best C in the EC?

midranger · Post #81 » by **midranger** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:40 am

Bogut just got done thoroughly dominating Heywood tonight. The truth is that since the first of the year, Bogut has played VERY, VERY well.

Parasight · Post #82 » by **Parasight** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:47 am

No offense to those who use them but I think pace-adjusted stats are garbage. I always see people trying to justify their causes by using predicted stats. Just a pet peeve of mine. That said, Haywood is definitely Top 3 in centers in the East. It depends on if you count Rasheed as a center.

Post #83 » by **nate33** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:13 am

midranger wrote:Bogut just got done thoroughly dominating Heywood tonight. The truth is that since the first of the year, Bogut has played VERY, VERY well.

I don't know if I would call that total domination. Here are their numbers during the 35 minutes that both players were on the court:

Bogut: PTS:14 RB:13 AST:4 STL:0 BLK:0 TO:2 FG:6/15 FT:2/2
Wood: PTS:11 RB:9 AST:2 STL:0 BLK:2 TO:3 FG:4/9 FT:3/4

Bogut had better glory numbers with the 14/13 double double, but he shot 6 of 15. That's not exactly a dominating effort. Basically, he matched Haywood's 4/9 from the floor, and then went on to shoot 2/6. That's 33%.

Haywood also had 2 blocks and 7 offensive boards, so Bogut obviously had trouble dealing with him on the glass.

Bogut happened to get an additional 4 points, (2 of 2 shooting) 2 boards and 2 assists in the 6 minutes that Haywood didn't guard him.

midranger · Post #84 » by **midranger** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:06 am

Bogut had 18/15/6. Is it his fault that Heywood can't keep his big butt on the floor for more than 35 minutes?

It's safe to say that he beat up Heywood pretty rough tonight.

midranger · Post #85 » by **midranger** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:09 am

Just scanning this thread, it appears nate33 has a statistical manipulation for whatever he wants "proven."

Though it wouldn't surprise me, I remember you as the guy championing Larry Hughes over Michael Redd and Kwame Brown over everyone on the basis of their PER-40 stats.

Post #86 » by **miller31time** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:12 am

midranger wrote:Bogut had 18/15/6. Is it his fault that Heywood can't keep his big butt on the floor for more than 35 minutes?

It's safe to say that he beat up Heywood pretty rough tonight.

Person A: Bogut dominated Haywood. He had 18/15/6.

Person B: Dominated is too strong. In the minutes they played together, it was fairly even when considering shots taken/made, and defense.

Person C: STATISTICAL MANIPULATION!!1!

skones · Post #87 » by **skones** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:21 am

[quote="nate33"][/quote]

I don't see how you can simply extrapolate Haywood's numbers through minutes played and call him the second best center in the east. Not only that, but statistics don't even paint the whole picture. Okafor, Bogut, Ilgauskas, Dalembert, and Rasheed Wallace (If you consider him a center) are all better players than Haywood.

Post #88 » by **nate33** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:04 am

midranger wrote:Just scanning this thread, it appears nate33 has a statistical manipulation for whatever he wants "proven."

Though it wouldn't surprise me, I remember you as the guy championing Larry Hughes over Michael Redd and Kwame Brown over everyone on the basis of their PER-40 stats.

Who's manipulating? I just put out the numbers and made my argument. Feel free to disagree. I even said in my first post on this thread that the one argument against Haywood is that he is only playing 27 minutes while the other guys are playing 28-33.

Regarding Hughes, he was indeed better than Redd during the 2004/05 season. The guy filled up the box score like few others while playing lock down D. He's now in a bad system with incompatible teammates and injuries have robbed him of his explosiveness.

Regarding Kwame, I was flat out wrong. He was making great progress back when I supported him. He was averaging about 16 and 10 per 40 over the 2nd half of the 2003/04 season. Unfortunately, his mind is unbelievably weak. He has totally regressed to the point where he is an almost worthless player.

Regarding Haywood versus Bogut, Bogut did indeed have a better game than Haywood. He outplayed him, but only by a little bit. I just objected to the term "domination". There is no way you can characterize a 6 for 15 shooting performance as total domination.

ExTasDeeMan · Post #89 » by **ExTasDeeMan** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:36 am

A little bit?

Dude - when he wasn't outscoring Wood, he was distributing the ball successfully and running the offence. I wouldn't say dominance is characterised by shots.

Serge28 · Post #90 » by **Serge28** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:15 am

18/15/6 versus 11/9/1 (not 2 as you have previously erroneously mentioned). Domination.

skones · Post #91 » by **skones** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:07 am

Another thing. During the game this evening Bogut was 5/10 when matched up 1 on 1 defensively with Haywood. Just went back and watched all of his shots during the course of the game.

AGAIN
10 shots
5 missed
5 made
when matched up 1on1 with Haywood.

He missed a few tip in attempts and was forced to take a couple jumpers with the shot clock expiring on a switch.