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Doctor MJ wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

I'll co-sign this, but I want to emphasize that "racist" has become such an inflammatory word that applying it correctly can get in the way of understanding.

What's happening here is that there's a dominant majority - Black Americans - who are seeing their dominance challenged by the globalization of the game, and like many dominant majorities that feel threatened, they are acting out in an emotionally biased way.

This is something that White people did with Black basketball players back in the day, and it's also something that short people did with tall people - bemoaning that there wouldn't be a place for short people in the future of pro basketball...and of course they were basically right.

So on a broad level, this is something we should expect, and not something to get the pitchforks out about.

Now, do I wish Perk & SAS didn't exist in the basketball space? Yes, but it's not because they have this Black American defensiveness so much as the fact they are all about courting controversy and using emotional tone and argumentation to get attention for themselves. There are stories, for example, of SAS talking on the phone rathe than watching the first half of a game, and then coming in at halftime doing his schtick where he basically just comments on the box score relying upon his style to make it look like he has some authority on what he's saying. For someone like that to be the most highly paid basketball commentator in the world is just plain bad for the game, and for Perk to be able to come in, copy that approach, and have success, is infuriating.

How can a league with 29/30~ white owners, mostly white coaches and mostly white award voters and media talking heads be black dominated?

I'm talking about basketball generally not about the NBA.

The game of basketball has been dominated by Black Americans beginning with Bill Russell.

From a business perspective, of course its dominated by Whites at the top. All American industries are.

AEnigma wrote:I personally attribute it to the generations of systemic inequality and oppression, but yeah, ESPN not censoring Kendrick Perkins for saying there might be white bias in MVP voting is pretty high up there.

OhayoKD wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:
How can a league with 29/30~ white owners, mostly white coaches and mostly white award voters and media talking heads be black dominated?

I'm talking about basketball generally not about the NBA.

The game of basketball has been dominated by Black Americans beginning with Bill Russell.

From a business perspective, of course its dominated by Whites at the top. All American industries are.

I would say the most powerful figures in basketball being predominantly white calls into question the significance of that distinction.

Doctor MJ wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
I'm talking about basketball generally not about the NBA.

The game of basketball has been dominated by Black Americans beginning with Bill Russell.

From a business perspective, of course its dominated by Whites at the top. All American industries are.

I would say the most powerful figures in basketball being predominantly white calls into question the significance of that distinction.

Honestly, I don't believe that this distinction is in any way hard for people to understand. When basketball is called a Black-dominated sport, even little kids understand why. It feels like both you guys are using considerable brainpower to find a way to be confused over something that basically no one is actually confused about.

If you want to talk about the dynamics of super-rich white men behind the scenes making tons of money in literally every industry in the US and how that interacts with the fact that in this case the stars of the sports have been predominantly black for well over half a century, we can, but there's no real confusion between these two things.

Peregrine01 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now, do I wish Perk & SAS didn't exist in the basketball space? Yes, but it's not because they have this Black American defensiveness so much as the fact they are all about courting controversy and using emotional tone and argumentation to get attention for themselves. There are stories, for example, of SAS talking on the phone rathe than watching the first half of a game, and then coming in at halftime doing his schtick where he basically just comments on the box score relying upon his style to make it look like he has some authority on what he's saying. For someone like that to be the most highly paid basketball commentator in the world is just plain bad for the game, and for Perk to be able to come in, copy that approach, and have success, is infuriating.

If something's blatantly wrong, it should be called out. ESPN and its parent Disney has portrayed itself as a paragon of virtue and morality and enabled outright racist behavior. We should reserve the same animus toward this kind of stuff if it happened to be about a white player just like we would if it was about a black player. The problem of why we don't in this country is a big reason for the strained race issues that we have IMO.

McBubbles wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now, do I wish Perk & SAS didn't exist in the basketball space? Yes, but it's not because they have this Black American defensiveness so much as the fact they are all about courting controversy and using emotional tone and argumentation to get attention for themselves. There are stories, for example, of SAS talking on the phone rathe than watching the first half of a game, and then coming in at halftime doing his schtick where he basically just comments on the box score relying upon his style to make it look like he has some authority on what he's saying. For someone like that to be the most highly paid basketball commentator in the world is just plain bad for the game, and for Perk to be able to come in, copy that approach, and have success, is infuriating.

If something's blatantly wrong, it should be called out. ESPN and its parent Disney has portrayed itself as a paragon of virtue and morality and enabled outright racist behavior. We should reserve the same animus toward this kind of stuff if it happened to be about a white player just like we would if it was about a black player. The problem of why we don't in this country is a big reason for the strained race issues that we have IMO.

Why? Not asking sarcastically, and not saying I disagree, just curious. I ask because I don't think all double standards are unjustifiable. Should a woman making a bad joke about beating up her husband receive as much outrage as vice versa? Should an ethnically Jewish person saying something bad about German's be received the same as the reverse? Considering the history of race relations in America, should a black American man being racist and dumb towards a white American man illicit an equal reaction to the reverse?

falcolombardi wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:I would say the most powerful figures in basketball being predominantly white calls into question the significance of that distinction.

Honestly, I don't believe that this distinction is in any way hard for people to understand. When basketball is called a Black-dominated sport, even little kids understand why. It feels like both you guys are using considerable brainpower to find a way to be confused over something that basically no one is actually confused about.

If you want to talk about the dynamics of super-rich white men behind the scenes making tons of money in literally every industry in the US and how that interacts with the fact that in this case the stars of the sports have been predominantly black for well over half a century, we can, but there's no real confusion between these two things.

But this discussion literally started about how a member of the predominantly white sports media supossedly ruined jokic mvp campaing in 2023 for being white

So yes, whether the media/ award voters of this league are white definetely matters in the topic of jokic being or not "robbed" for being white because a majority of players are black"

If you guys believe perkins was the king maker who decided the mvp race so be it, it still was not voted in by resentful black players like your comment about a threatened majority suggested

The majority black players were not the ones voting for embiid over jokic in the first place for them to be doing out of resentment at a white guy winning mvp

McBubbles wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now, do I wish Perk & SAS didn't exist in the basketball space? Yes, but it's not because they have this Black American defensiveness so much as the fact they are all about courting controversy and using emotional tone and argumentation to get attention for themselves. There are stories, for example, of SAS talking on the phone rathe than watching the first half of a game, and then coming in at halftime doing his schtick where he basically just comments on the box score relying upon his style to make it look like he has some authority on what he's saying. For someone like that to be the most highly paid basketball commentator in the world is just plain bad for the game, and for Perk to be able to come in, copy that approach, and have success, is infuriating.

If something's blatantly wrong, it should be called out. ESPN and its parent Disney has portrayed itself as a paragon of virtue and morality and enabled outright racist behavior. We should reserve the same animus toward this kind of stuff if it happened to be about a white player just like we would if it was about a black player. The problem of why we don't in this country is a big reason for the strained race issues that we have IMO.

Why? Not asking sarcastically, and not saying I disagree, just curious. I ask because I don't think all double standards are unjustifiable. Should a woman making a bad joke about beating up her husband receive as much outrage as vice versa? Should an ethnically Jewish person saying something bad about German's be received the same as the reverse? Considering the history of race relations in America, should a black American man being racist and dumb towards a white American man illicit an equal reaction to the reverse?

Peregrine01 wrote:

AEnigma wrote:I personally attribute it to the generations of systemic inequality and oppression, but yeah, ESPN not censoring Kendrick Perkins for saying there might be white bias in MVP voting is pretty high up there.

I know that you're being facetious again but perhaps I could've explained what I meant better.

MLK's dream was for people to treat each other without regard for the color of their skin - when that premise is violated and clear and obviously racist behavior is perpetuated widely and aren't checked, it first creates resentment among the afflicted group. But resentment isn't something that goes away. It feeds on itself and grows, fostering an "us versus them" worldview which leads to a race to the bottom where members of each "team" retreats into their own tribes, driving divisions ever larger. Politicians on both sides exploit these feelings of resentment and disenfrachisement. Just look at Trump.

OhayoKD wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

AEnigma wrote:I personally attribute it to the generations of systemic inequality and oppression, but yeah, ESPN not censoring Kendrick Perkins for saying there might be white bias in MVP voting is pretty high up there.

I know that you're being facetious again but perhaps I could've explained what I meant better.

MLK's dream was for people to treat each other without regard for the color of their skin - when that premise is violated and clear and obviously racist behavior is perpetuated widely and aren't checked, it first creates resentment among the afflicted group. But resentment isn't something that goes away. It feeds on itself and grows, fostering an "us versus them" worldview which leads to a race to the bottom where members of each "team" retreats into their own tribes, driving divisions ever larger. Politicians on both sides exploit these feelings of resentment and disenfrachisement. Just look at Trump.

To be clear, do you also think ESPN should have censored Bob Costas?

McBubbles wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now, do I wish Perk & SAS didn't exist in the basketball space? Yes, but it's not because they have this Black American defensiveness so much as the fact they are all about courting controversy and using emotional tone and argumentation to get attention for themselves. There are stories, for example, of SAS talking on the phone rathe than watching the first half of a game, and then coming in at halftime doing his schtick where he basically just comments on the box score relying upon his style to make it look like he has some authority on what he's saying. For someone like that to be the most highly paid basketball commentator in the world is just plain bad for the game, and for Perk to be able to come in, copy that approach, and have success, is infuriating.

If something's blatantly wrong, it should be called out. ESPN and its parent Disney has portrayed itself as a paragon of virtue and morality and enabled outright racist behavior. We should reserve the same animus toward this kind of stuff if it happened to be about a white player just like we would if it was about a black player. The problem of why we don't in this country is a big reason for the strained race issues that we have IMO.

Why? Not asking sarcastically, and not saying I disagree, just curious. I ask because I don't think all double standards are unjustifiable. Should a woman making a bad joke about beating up her husband receive as much outrage as vice versa? Should an ethnically Jewish person saying something bad about German's be received the same as the reverse? Considering the history of race relations in America, should a black American man being racist and dumb towards a white American man illicit an equal reaction to the reverse?

NbaAllDay wrote:

McBubbles wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:
If something's blatantly wrong, it should be called out. ESPN and its parent Disney has portrayed itself as a paragon of virtue and morality and enabled outright racist behavior. We should reserve the same animus toward this kind of stuff if it happened to be about a white player just like we would if it was about a black player. The problem of why we don't in this country is a big reason for the strained race issues that we have IMO.

Why? Not asking sarcastically, and not saying I disagree, just curious. I ask because I don't think all double standards are unjustifiable. Should a woman making a bad joke about beating up her husband receive as much outrage as vice versa? Should an ethnically Jewish person saying something bad about German's be received the same as the reverse? Considering the history of race relations in America, should a black American man being racist and dumb towards a white American man illicit an equal reaction to the reverse?

Well yes.

The vast majority of people in today's society have nothing to do with the past relations and/or shouldn't be swept into the same boat and therefore pretending that as an 'x race' you as an individual are either less or more justified to be racist or be the victim goes completely against the individual rights we all 'should' have.

McBubbles wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Now, do I wish Perk & SAS didn't exist in the basketball space? Yes, but it's not because they have this Black American defensiveness so much as the fact they are all about courting controversy and using emotional tone and argumentation to get attention for themselves. There are stories, for example, of SAS talking on the phone rathe than watching the first half of a game, and then coming in at halftime doing his schtick where he basically just comments on the box score relying upon his style to make it look like he has some authority on what he's saying. For someone like that to be the most highly paid basketball commentator in the world is just plain bad for the game, and for Perk to be able to come in, copy that approach, and have success, is infuriating.

If something's blatantly wrong, it should be called out. ESPN and its parent Disney has portrayed itself as a paragon of virtue and morality and enabled outright racist behavior. We should reserve the same animus toward this kind of stuff if it happened to be about a white player just like we would if it was about a black player. The problem of why we don't in this country is a big reason for the strained race issues that we have IMO.

Why? Not asking sarcastically, and not saying I disagree, just curious. I ask because I don't think all double standards are unjustifiable. Should a woman making a bad joke about beating up her husband receive as much outrage as vice versa? Should an ethnically Jewish person saying something bad about German's be received the same as the reverse? Considering the history of race relations in America, should a black American man being racist and dumb towards a white American man illicit an equal reaction to the reverse?