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Some people are starting to suggest Luka is a better playmaking than 2013 LeBron (and even comparable to 2016-17 to 2017-18 + 2020) LeBron. Does this take have any great merit to it? I mean, Luka’s rim pressure and drive and kick outs are insane. Also an amazing half court passer, making great interior reads + cross court passes. Off ball is very questionable, imo for surely worse than Miami lebron. What do you guys think, is Luka this year better than Miami or even Cleveland/2020 Bron as a playmaker? Also, how would you guys rank, 24 Luka, 13 Bron, 17 Bron, 18 Bron, and 2020 Bron as playmakers from best to worst.

I still prefer the "ultimate" versions of LeBron to Peak Luka at the moment. That includes 2009/2010, 2013, 2016/2017 and maybe even 2020.

Even in a single game in 2024 there is merit for taking LeBron in a single game (See last game of season vs Pelicans) where when LeBron is locked-in and has his motor firing on all-cylinders he is 1 of 2 with Jokic.

That said, what Luka is doing is special. Seems to be matching and possibly surpassing Peak Harden, who is sort of the gate keeper to All-Time great playmaking.

Lebronnygoat wrote:Some people are starting to suggest Luka is a better playmaking than 2013 LeBron (and even comparable to 2016-17 to 2017-18 + 2020) LeBron. Does this take have any great merit to it? I mean, Luka’s rim pressure and drive and kick outs are insane. Also an amazing half court passer, making great interior reads + cross court passes. Off ball is very questionable, imo for surely worse than Miami lebron. What do you guys think, is Luka this year better than Miami or even Cleveland/2020 Bron as a playmaker? Also, how would you guys rank, 24 Luka, 13 Bron, 17 Bron, 18 Bron, and 2020 Bron as playmakers from best to worst.

In terms of straight production, 2009/2010 Lebron is probably the most productive playmaking season ever with multiple factors playing into Lebron's favor over Luka here: Size, Era, and team consturction.

That said, I can buy Luka being a more talented playmaker in a vacuum and I can buy that later versions of Lebron may have achieved greater results in the same context 2009 Lebron was in in terms of just playmaking

Luka is a better playmaker, a better scorer and a better rebounder.

hagredionis wrote:Luka is a better playmaker, a better scorer and a better rebounder.

You can make the argument for the playmaking and the rebounding.

The scoring angle doesn't make a lot of sense, though.

In strict playmaking terms, maybe yes? But peak LeBron was a more efficient scorer (at least relative to era) and much better in transition, so I think he was a superior offensive player.

lessthanjake wrote:In strict playmaking terms, maybe yes? But peak LeBron was a more efficient scorer (at least relative to era) and much better in transition, so I think he was a superior offensive player.

That isn't within the parameters of the OP, though. Playmaking is the focus, not scoring or total offensive value.

So basically "yes," is what you're saying, you agree that Luka's playmaking is superior.

tsherkin wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:In strict playmaking terms, maybe yes? But peak LeBron was a more efficient scorer (at least relative to era) and much better in transition, so I think he was a superior offensive player.

That isn't within the parameters of the OP, though. Playmaking is the focus, not scoring or total offensive value.

So basically "yes," is what you're saying, you agree that Luka's playmaking is superior.

Yes, that is what I am saying. (I gave the out-of-scope caveats primarily to avoid having various pro-LeBron posters that so often aggressively take issue with posts relating to LeBron from flipping out at me for the bajillionth time.)

lessthanjake wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:In strict playmaking terms, maybe yes? But peak LeBron was a more efficient scorer (at least relative to era) and much better in transition, so I think he was a superior offensive player.

That isn't within the parameters of the OP, though. Playmaking is the focus, not scoring or total offensive value.

So basically "yes," is what you're saying, you agree that Luka's playmaking is superior.

Yes, that is what I am saying. (I gave the out-of-scope caveats primarily to avoid having various pro-LeBron posters that so often aggressively take issue with posts relating to LeBron from flipping out at me for the bajillionth time.)

Ah, yes. That can get quite frustrating, for sure.

tsherkin wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
That isn't within the parameters of the OP, though. Playmaking is the focus, not scoring or total offensive value.

So basically "yes," is what you're saying, you agree that Luka's playmaking is superior.

Yes, that is what I am saying. (I gave the out-of-scope caveats primarily to avoid having various pro-LeBron posters that so often aggressively take issue with posts relating to LeBron from flipping out at me for the bajillionth time.)

Ah, yes. That can get quite frustrating, for sure.

Also, just to clarify, I guess I wasn’t saying a definitive yes, but more of a “maybe yes, but I’m not sure.” I think Luka is, if anything, perhaps an even more gifted passer. However, I don’t see him as being quite as good at breaking down the defense in the first place. (Of course, both are great at both, so this is all a matter of degree.) In other words, IMO, I think peak LeBron was a bit better at making the defense scramble, while Luka is a bit better at the actual act of making reads and passing. Both aspects of this are crucial to playmaking, so it doesn’t really leave me with a clear winner. Another aspect of this is that Luka is even more ball-dominant than peak LeBron, so his volume of playmaking (at least on-ball) is higher. I’m not really considering that as a factor here, though, since that’s just a stylistic difference rather than an ability difference.

lessthanjake wrote:Also, just to clarify, I guess I wasn’t saying a definitive yes, but more of a “maybe yes, but I’m not sure.” I think Luka is, if anything, perhaps an even more gifted passer. However, I don’t see him as being quite as good at breaking down the defense in the first place. (Of course, both are great at both, so this is all a matter of degree.) In other words, IMO, I think peak LeBron was a bit better at making the defense scramble, while Luka is a bit better at the actual act of making reads and passing. Both aspects of this are crucial to playmaking, so it doesn’t really leave me with a clear winner. Another aspect of this is that Luka is even more ball-dominant than peak LeBron, so his volume of playmaking (at least on-ball) is higher. I’m not really considering that as a factor here, though, since that’s just a stylistic difference rather than an ability difference.

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying

Need to see playoffs but per their exact ages Doncic is better

lessthanjake wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:
Yes, that is what I am saying. (I gave the out-of-scope caveats primarily to avoid having various pro-LeBron posters that so often aggressively take issue with posts relating to LeBron from flipping out at me for the bajillionth time.)

Ah, yes. That can get quite frustrating, for sure.

Also, just to clarify, I guess I wasn’t saying a definitive yes, but more of a “maybe yes, but I’m not sure.” I think Luka is, if anything, perhaps an even more gifted passer. However, I don’t see him as being quite as good at breaking down the defense in the first place. (Of course, both are great at both, so this is all a matter of degree.) In other words, IMO, I think peak LeBron was a bit better at making the defense scramble, while Luka is a bit better at the actual act of making reads and passing. Both aspects of this are crucial to playmaking, so it doesn’t really leave me with a clear winner. Another aspect of this is that Luka is even more ball-dominant than peak LeBron, so his volume of playmaking (at least on-ball) is higher. I’m not really considering that as a factor here, though, since that’s just a stylistic difference rather than an ability difference.

My take is basically the same. Lebron better at breaking down the D and Luka better at making reads and passing.

I think 2020 Bron was better than any Luka playmaking wise.

rk2023 wrote:I think 2020 Bron was better than any Luka playmaking wise.

Why

Luka just has a higher motor on the ball than Bron. He’s sloppier with the ball (losing it) on ball, far less off ball capable and simply far less good than Bron, and passing (talent) is similar. LeBron breaks down defenses and yes defenders better when slashing, far better PnR, slightly better court awareness, makes better passes, better when getting blitzed at. And honestly he’s giving similar spacing, and imo LeBron has better gravity in general too. I agree he’s breaking into (and now exceeding) that James Harden tier, but not as good as LeBron. I also feel more trust with the ball in Bron’s hands.

Lebronnygoat wrote:LeBron breaks down defenses and yes defenders better when slashing, far better PnR, slightly better court awareness, makes better passes, better when getting blitzed at. .

Luka is the most blitzed player in the league right now and has completely eviscerated that sort of coverage this year. What is your basis for Lebron handling that better?

If it's purely playmaking, I might go Luka.

It's close.

Lebronnygoat wrote:

rk2023 wrote:I think 2020 Bron was better than any Luka playmaking wise.

Why

That’s what watching either of them told me - I believe passer rating regards that season from James rather highly.

Lebronnygoat wrote:

rk2023 wrote:I think 2020 Bron was better than any Luka playmaking wise.

Why

LeBron was putting up incredible assist numbers in an era where most teams were trying to go 4-out and even some 5-out yet the Lakers had a mediocre shooting cast.

Late career Danny Green, KCP and Avery Bradley were the best [All of whom were sub-40% 3P shooters in the 36-38%] but then you had AD playing the 4 for 60% of his minutes, meaning 90% of the time was a combination of AD/Kuzma/Dwight/McGee, which is 4 non-3P threats [Kuzma a 31% 3P and AD 33%].

Caruso and Rondo completed the teams rotation, and neither of them were 3P threats to any degree [Caruso < 2 3PA/G on 33%].

All this, and LeBron was still posting an incredible volume of 49% AST%/15% TOV% [For comparison, Luka and Tyrese this year are around 44% AST% and 13% TOV%]. The only comparable AST/TOV Percentages in the past decade was Westbrook from 2016-2019 at 51% AST% and 16% TOV%.

AST% and TOV% shouldn't be used to measure how good a passer is, but they are an excellent indicator in measuring playmaking load/volume within a teams system, and 2020 LeBron is right behind the Peaks/Primes of CP3/Stockton/Westbrook/Nash and a single Harden/Magic/Rondo season.