Raptors/Suns/Hornets: Agreed on Draft Day, July 1st Deal

[Alfred]

Another question: why wouldn't the "rebuilding" Suns just draft a PG with their pick and save money in the long run?

Because drafting a player, especially at pick #14 does not in any way guarantee that you will be getting a good point guard. Jose Calderon is a proven commodity. He is signed to a good long-term contract considering his production. It's called hedging your bets.

Then by all means the Raptors should keep him. I don't know why they would want to trade a proven commodity on a reasonable contract for what is being considered a clearly inferior player and a gamble of a draft pick.

I'm not saying that this is a good trade for the Raptors. I'm saying that Calderon is worth at least as much as Nash and their first round pick. You're getting confused.

[Alfred]

The basis of this deal is were it goes wrong. You want Nash and the pick for Calderon. That won't happen.

Why?

Nash is the face of their franchise. You think their fans would be happy if they traded Nash for Calderon? They would just lose more money.

There are plenty of older players who have been the face of their franchises for a lot longer than Steve Nash and have been traded for a far larger talent gap than Nash to Calderon.

Teams rebuild. That's a fact.

[loserX]

I'm not saying that this is a good trade for the Raptors. I'm saying that Calderon is worth at least as much as Nash and their first round pick. You're getting confused.

The deal also includes Humphries, who holds negative value to the Suns as far as this deal is concerned. As I said before, take him out and the deal is a lot closer. (Raptors will have capspace after July 1 anyway...so he's not necessary.)

And I'm saying that Calderon/Humphries may be worth that to the Raptors, but he is not worth that to the Suns. My vision is clear, thanks.

[loserX]

Teams rebuild. That's a fact.

And when they do, they tend not to toss away lottery picks. Also fact.

[bcortell]

There are plenty of older players who have been the face of their franchises for a lot longer than Steve Nash and have been traded for a far larger talent gap than Nash to Calderon.

Teams rebuild. That's a fact.

And if they do rebuild, they don't do it around Calderon. Especially if they are giving up their lotto pick.

[Baddy Chuck]

I'm saying that Calderon is worth at least as much as Nash and their first round pick.

Hardly.......

im glad me and alfred are on the same page

2 Raptors fans agreeing on their player being worth more then he is? I'm stunned.

[SideSwipe]

There was a forum a few weeks ago where Raptors were thinking that giving up Caldero, the #9 with Hump (or close to that deal) was what they wanted. Now Raptors fans have changed their tune. LOL....Alfred, sorry buddy, nobody is going to give you a 2-Time MVP consistent All-star difference maker for Calderon straight up, whether he is 35 or not. It is just not going to happen, so the offer provided here is not valuable to entice PHX even with Hump asa throw in. Give us the #9 and calderon and we only begin to think about it, I would probably still be inclined to pass.

[Alfred]

And I'm saying that Calderon/Humphries may be worth that to the Raptors, but he is not worth that to the Suns. My vision is clear, thanks.

I think that they are worth that to the Suns. Calderon is almost a decade younger, a very talented point guard, and Steve Nash is a UFA next year. The Suns obviously do this trade. That disparity between Nash and Calderon is definitely a mid-round pick in a weak draft and taking on Kris Humphries. Hell, Humphries isn't even bad.

Also, you did get a little confused there. You were implying that I was saying something that I wasn't.

[Alfred]

There was a forum a few weeks ago where Raptors were thinking that giving up Caldero, the #9 with Hump (or close to that deal) was what they wanted. Now Raptors fans have changed their tune. LOL....Alfred, sorry buddy, nobody is going to give you a 2-Time MVP consistent All-star difference maker for Calderon straight up, whether he is 35 or not. It is just not going to happen, so the offer provided here is not valuable to entice PHX even with Hump asa throw in. Give us the #9 and calderon and we only begin to think about it, I would probably still be inclined to pass.

What do you think Steve Nash will sign for next year as a UFA?

Also, the difference in their production is being overblown extremely.

[Alfred]

The difference in PER between Jose Calderon and Steve Nash this past year was .8

[loserX]

And I'm saying that Calderon/Humphries may be worth that to the Raptors, but he is not worth that to the Suns. My vision is clear, thanks.

I think that they are worth that to the Suns. Calderon is almost a decade younger, a very talented point guard, and Steve Nash is a UFA next year. The Suns obviously do this trade.

It's funny how only the Raptors fans in this thread think so. Weird that everyone else would miss something so obvious.

Hell, Humphries isn't even bad.

Again, then the Raptors should keep him. He poses negative value to the Suns, and doesn't need to be in the trade at all.

[bcortell]

The difference in PER between Jose Calderon and Steve Nash this past year was .8

What do you think the "marketability" difference is between the two? (And yes, I might have just coined that term.)

[Alfred]

The difference in PER between Jose Calderon and Steve Nash this past year was .8

What do you think the "marketability" difference is between the two? (And yes, I might have just coined that term.)

What do you think will be the marketability of that team a few years down the road? Teams take that into consideration as well, you know.

Also, add into that equasion: team success. Do you believe that a few years down the road, the Suns would be more successful with Steve Nash or Jose Calderon?

[Alfred]

And I'm saying that Calderon/Humphries may be worth that to the Raptors, but he is not worth that to the Suns. My vision is clear, thanks.

I think that they are worth that to the Suns. Calderon is almost a decade younger, a very talented point guard, and Steve Nash is a UFA next year. The Suns obviously do this trade.

It's funny how only the Raptors fans in this thread think so. Weird that everyone else would miss something so obvious.

Jose Calderon has had trade rumours swirling about him for months and months, with every deal slowly becoming more and more of a lowball. That's what happens with any player on the trade forum. The more they are inserted into proposed trades, the more people scrutinize their shortcomings, the more lowball offers you hear: it creates an echo chamber that reinforces perceived data, be it real or not real. Look at Chris Bosh for instance: what kind of offers were said to be his worth at the beginning of the trade rumours, and what it is now.

For example, if Steve Nash had his name floated in trade rumours and started showing up on the trade board, you'd start off with something that approaches a real offer for him, and slowly you'll start to see his "value" decline. It's like in real life. If you shop something long enough, it'll lose a lot of percieved value.

For example, people see the talent gap between Jose and Nash to be this gaping chasm, when in reality their PERs were only .8 apart this year (which was also a down season for him, where he played through injury). Considering the age difference and Nash's contract status, submit that as my evidence why the Suns would OBVIOUSLY take this trade.

[Alfred]

Again, then the Raptors should keep him. He poses negative value to the Suns, and doesn't need to be in the trade at all.

Again, you're making the same mistake LX! All I am saying is that the Suns would make the Jose/Humphries for Steve Nash + #14 trade.

[loserX]

Again, then the Raptors should keep him. He poses negative value to the Suns, and doesn't need to be in the trade at all.

Again, you're making the same mistake LX! All I am saying is that the Suns would make this trade.

I am making no mistake. I am saying that the Suns would be a lot more tempted to make this trade if Humphries were not in it, because he unnecessarily sandbags the value that the Suns are receiving. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what the Raptors think of Humphries or how they value him. The trade is better for the Suns if Humphries is not in it. I think it is your turn to be confused.

[Leto]

I had a similar thought with Hinrich and #26 going to the Suns for Nash and the #14. He's got a much better contract that declines, is a better defender and I personally like his game better. He's definitely more suited to playoff basketball and the Suns would save a couple million immediately.

[Rapsobsessed7]

wait so your valuing nash on past years? Im sure than Allen Iverson is worth a whole bunch or Tracey Mcgrady i hate how people view players from past accomplishments what did nash win THIS SEASON? That separates him so much from nash? I showed you stats their basically equal except age and you think a lottery pick at #14 in one of the weakest drafts in history so they can draft who at #14 (williams, Flynn?) In other drafts those are 20+ in the draft yet all of a sudden this #14 pick can help them rebuild? Jose Calderon is marketed as the 2nd face of the franchise here in Toronto and i wouldnt think the difference in marketing is all that big as you make it out to be. Toronto is one of the biggest markets for sports, i see how nash would get recognition outside of the Phoenix area but so does Jose playing internationally. I just dont see the marketing difference that huge but if Nash came to Canada then you see this big difference and MLSE starts to make huge amounts of money by bringing Nashh (a canadian) to toronto.

That being said a 35 year old nash wont get better offers than this in the open market, Jose has had a down year and is very undervalued by many here. The big problem many have here is the pick being sent to toronto but whats the difference from #14 in this years draft (Terrence Williams) or #20 next year (Xavier Henry, Draft Express) Just throwing that out there because next season when the new CBA is set to be put in place, people trying to clear room youll see picks sold and not to say Henry goes there but he is a MUCH better talent than Williams and thats at #20, going down theres a bunch of players that have more potential than williams because this is such a weak draft, next year looks loaded which is why the 3 million cash would compensate for the loss of williams.

[Alfred]

Again, then the Raptors should keep him. He poses negative value to the Suns, and doesn't need to be in the trade at all.

Again, you're making the same mistake LX! All I am saying is that the Suns would make this trade.

I am making no mistake. I am saying that the Suns would be a lot more tempted to make this trade if Humphries were not in it, because he unnecessarily sandbags the value that the Suns are receiving. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what the Raptors think of Humphries or how they value him. The trade is better for the Suns if Humphries is not in it. I think it is your turn to be confused.

Maybe the trade would be better for the Suns if Humphries isn't in the trade. What I'm saying is that they would still make the trade regardless, because of the superior value of Jose Calderon.

You're not grasping what I'm saying so I'll try to be a bit more clear:

Imagine if the Raptors were demanding that Humphries had to be included in the deal, for whatever reason. I'm saying that the Suns would still make the trade.

Why am I making this point? Because I'm trying to establish the relative values of the players involved as part of my argument. Humphries not being bad is one of the reasons behind that.

[loserX]

You're not grasping what I'm saying so I'll try to be a bit more clear:

Imagine if the Raptors were demanding that Humphries had to be included in the deal, for whatever reason. I'm saying that the Suns would still make the trade.

I am well aware of what you're saying. I am simply disagreeing with it. This does not mean I am confused or "making a mistake", though.