Ok, NOW: Tmac OR Pierce on the all-time

[bluestang302]

Okay I'll be the guy who makes the obvious thread. After last night, where does Paul Pierce rank on the all-time list and is he now higher than Tracy McGrady?

The Truth:
23.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.7 bpg, 44.2 FG%, 36.3 3pt%, 79.5 FT%, 21.4 PER
3 Time All-NBA (3 3rds)
6 Time All-Star
1 NBA Title
1 Finals MVP
5 Playoff Appearances (with a title win and a conf finals)
Top 15 MVP Finishes: 4 (11, 11, 13, 14)

TMac:
22.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.0 bpg, 43.7 FG%, 33.7 3pt%, 74.7 FT%, 23.4 PER
7 Time All-NBA (2 1sts, 3 2nds, 2 3rds)
7 Time All-Star
7 Playoff Appearances (1st round only)
Top 10 MVP Finishes: 6 (6, 4, 4, 7, 6, 8)

McGrady obviously has the greater individual resume and accomplishments. The difference between 6 Top 10 MVP placements and 0 is pretty large. As is the difference between 7 All-NBA selections (2 1sts and 3 2nds) and 3. But I think most agree that if TMac is the better play, that Pierce is at least in the same general ballpark as a talent. Now, he has a ring and a Finals MVP.

So, where would everyone rate Pierce and TMac now on the Top players list? I think Pierce has solidified his place in the Top 75 at least, while TMac could be argued as a Top 50 but it's not a sure thing.

[CBS7]

Winning a title and finals MVP does a lot for you in this regard.

McGrady at his peak was still the better player, though.

[Malinhion]

I'll still take peak McGrady and Pierce career.

Finals hasn't changed my spot a bit.

[Man_Up]

Pierce.

T-Mac use to be a favorite of mines, but i got tired of him not showing up when it counts.

All the talent in the world can't make up for a weak Mentality.

The only thing that makes people think T-Mac is better is T-mac's superior Athleticism.

[Baller 24]

McGrady also has a VERY large impact on his teams. Like for instance since he has been a Rocket, when McGrady doesn't play the Rockets have a 23% winning percentage. While in games he plays the Rockets have a 62% winning percentage. The impact he has on his team is larger, also consider the supporting cast he has had without Yao for the 2nd half of the season the past 2 seasons, he managed to lead them to a 50 win team twice. I don't know if Pierce has the capability to do that, but I think McGrady goes ahead of Pierce all time, but this is going to be hard to determine until he gets out of the first round. Also like to add his playoff numbers have been amazing, 28, 6, 6, not even Jordan has done that, also his ppg in the playoffs is 5th all time, from his numbers you can tell its not his fault he hasn't been out, its his supporting cast for not continuously showing up.

[bluestang302]

Agreed Baller. I'm a TMac fan, so his lack of team success frustrates me. I think the responses so far is probably the majority opinion: Tmac is the more talented player, but (maybe because of that talent) he is viewed as somewhat of a disappointment. Pierce's ring and Finals MVP also bolsters his lesser resume to a great degree, far more than TMac's All-nba 2nd team this year bolstered his.

I wonder how Tmac would have done playing with KG rather than Yao.

[guy1]

McGrady also has a VERY large impact on his teams. Like for instance since he has been a Rocket, when McGrady doesn't play the Rockets have a 23% winning percentage. While in games he plays the Rockets have a 62% winning percentage. The impact he has on his team is larger, also consider the supporting cast he has had without Yao for the 2nd half of the season the past 2 seasons, he managed to lead them to a 50 win team twice. I don't know if Pierce has the capability to do that, but I think McGrady goes ahead of Pierce all time, but this is going to be hard to determine until he gets out of the first round. Also like to add his playoff numbers have been amazing, 28, 6, 6, not even Jordan has done that, also his ppg in the playoffs is 5th all time, from his numbers you can tell its not his fault he hasn't been out, its his supporting cast for not continuously showing up.

Umm what are you talking about? Jordan's playoff numbers are 33/6/6 and he's played way more playoff games. T-Mac's one of my favorite players but come on now.

[Baller 24]

McGrady also has a VERY large impact on his teams. Like for instance since he has been a Rocket, when McGrady doesn't play the Rockets have a 23% winning percentage. While in games he plays the Rockets have a 62% winning percentage. The impact he has on his team is larger, also consider the supporting cast he has had without Yao for the 2nd half of the season the past 2 seasons, he managed to lead them to a 50 win team twice. I don't know if Pierce has the capability to do that, but I think McGrady goes ahead of Pierce all time, but this is going to be hard to determine until he gets out of the first round. Also like to add his playoff numbers have been amazing, 28, 6, 6, not even Jordan has done that, also his ppg in the playoffs is 5th all time, from his numbers you can tell its not his fault he hasn't been out, its his supporting cast for not continuously showing up.

Umm what are you talking about? Jordan's playoff numbers are 33/6/6 and he's played way more playoff games. T-Mac's one of my favorite players but come on now.

No, Jordan doesn't average over 6.0 assist, there was a list of players who do last month when the playoffs started, and Jordan wasn't on there, Jordan averaged 5.7 assist. Along with 33pts and 6 rebounds, McGrady is over 6rebounds and 6 assist, while putting up 28ppg.

[Baller 24]

Agreed Baller. I'm a TMac fan, so his lack of team success frustrates me. I think the responses so far is probably the majority opinion: Tmac is the more talented player, but (maybe because of that talent) he is viewed as somewhat of a disappointment. Pierce's ring and Finals MVP also bolsters his lesser resume to a great degree, far more than TMac's All-nba 2nd team this year bolstered his.

I wonder how Tmac would have done playing with KG rather than Yao.

Its all about health man, the Rockets would have been a very good team in the playoffs if healthy, you can't really measure 2 years worth of playoff success. McGrady and Yao played pretty good last year, but Yao wasn't 100%, and the supporting cast was mediocre. This year Yao wasn't here, you know what happened, and this time the supporting cast was there.

Same thing with KG, I think they would be a great team, but again you need the supporting cast around them both, and also the health factor plays in once again. And lets not forget everyone, KG was 0-7 before he got out of the first round, McGrady currently is 0-7, why wasn't he judged differently? while McGrady gets bashed by the media continuously.

[Datruth345]

its interesting how pierces numbers are slightly better across the board, but T-mac has alot more individual awards and merits

hype kills

[Wade2k6]

I think you gotta go Tmacs peak with Pierces career.

Peirce is still a great player, but Tmac was the better player IMO.

[tmac4real]

I'll say the same thing now about Pierce than I did about Kobe, and Pierced proved it.

Pierce/Kobe/Tmac are all capable of winning a ring. Kobe may be the best of the 3 but they are all championship level players. Difference before this year was that Kobe was the one who was blessed with a top class team to win it. Tmac and Pierce weren't.

No Pierce was blessed with a top class team and has won. I wouldn't say he's a better player than McGrady, since I feel McGrady does almost everything better than him, but I gotta say he was sensational this finals and outplayed "The MVP".

I still rank:

Kobe
Tmac
Pierce

though.

[bluestang302]

its interesting how pierces numbers are slightly better across the board, but T-mac has alot more individual awards and merits

hype kills

If you're talking career averages, remember that Tmac came from High School and didn't recieve a lot of playing time until his 3rd season - whereas Pierce was logging big minutes his rookie year. This isn't necessarily a point in TMac's favor, though it is a reason why his averages are lower than what one may think. Take away his first two years and his numbers are: 24.9, 6.4, 5.2.

[etopn23]

As far as their careers go they aren't comparable players. The only thing Pierce has on McGrady is a finals MVP; give T-Mac Allen and KG and I'm pretty sure he'd be just as successful.

[Malinhion]

We're calling him TarMac until he proves he can get a playoff campaign off the ground.

[Ballings7]

Still Paul Pierce

[meatball sub]

You guys forgot to factor in durability and defense. Sorry but this debate is OVER, Pierce just played some of the best ball of his career on the biggest stage and came out on top. McGrady still has yet to get within two rounds of the biggest stage. I've been tired of this comparison for 3-4 years and I can't believe people still think Tmac is better. Pierce has the most versatile offensive game of any wing in the NBA and this year he has become an exceptional defender to boot. Numbers are not everything and to prove that just look at the other half of this debate.

Oh, plus Pierce stayed loyal to his franchise and didn't demand a trade and has reaped the benefits. So Pierce wins the judgment category too.

[The Explorer]

I don't think Pierce is that far off from Kobe.

Tmac is far, far behind.

[TheSheriff]

Yes, T-mac would have gotten out of the first round this year with KG and Ray. But by the same token Pierce would have gotten out of the first round in years past with Ming.

Pierce has never gotten the credit he deserved until probably game seven of the Cleveland Series when he kept pace with Lebron. Even this year he should have been second team all-NBA. Now he will finally get some recognition after outplaying Kobe for six games (actually 8 if you count the two regular season meetings).

[War3player]

its interesting how pierces numbers are slightly better across the board, but T-mac has alot more individual awards and merits

hype kills

Those are career numbers and obviously McGrady's first few years as a bench warmer in Toronto is going to affect the numbers.