Rondo's rank as PG in the NBA

[JD225]

I would argue against some of the teams you listed as teams he would start for. The Cavs for instance absolutely need guards who can shoot. Same with Orlando. If you don't see Rondo as a liability, then who in this league is?

Your comment about Ainge not trading Rondo for Calderon just screams championship high horse by the way. I can't imagine how awful his offensive numbers would be if he received the attention Calderon gets or if his shots were even contested.

[microfib4thewin]

I am intrigued to know how you define a top 10 PG. Rondo is top 10 in defense and rebounding, but he's not a top 10 playmaker and he doesn't perform consistently enough to be considered a borderline allstar. That's like ignoring all the games Jazz lose and say Boozer had a good playoff run. No one who is sane will analyze players on only games that they WIN.

I have never said Rondo was the sole reason why the Cs went 7 games, but his sporadic play is a part of why Boston were struggling in round 1 and 2(the other part being the epic failure Ray Allen). You really want to make the argument that the Hawks and Cavs elevated their play against the Celtics? Look at how the Hawks and the Cavs finish the end of the season, a team does not play .500 ball and then suddenly steps up. If anything it was the Cs not being mentally prepared for the playoff atmosphere which made them play a level below their potential. When Bibby said the Cs have matchup problem against the Hawks, everyone laughed, and when the Cavs fans say it's possible for the Cavs to pull an upset, people stare with wide eyes at the thought of a struggling post-trade Cavs even putting a dent on the Cs, Delonte West and Wally to defend the perimeter? Big Ben to defend KG? In all honesty, I did think the Cavs stepped up, but not to the point where the series wasn't decided until the final 30 seconds of game 7 when Lebron airballed the floater.

Going back to Rondo, I have no doubt he could be an allstar, but right now? If you see a guard playing on a different team, and he has Duncan, Bosh, and Lebron. Would you have labeled him top 10 regardless of how well he played?

[wigglestrue]

I would argue against some of the teams you listed as teams he would start for. The Cavs for instance absolutely need guards who can shoot. Same with Orlando. If you don't see Rondo as a liability, then who in this league is?

Your comment about Ainge not trading Rondo for Calderon just screams championship high horse by the way. I can't imagine how awful his offensive numbers would be if he received the attention Calderon gets or if his shots were even contested.

For the billionth time...

Rondo in '06-07, in the 25 games he started:
10.6 pts, 5.4 reb, 5.8 ast, 2.4 steals, 47.4% FG

Kill that notion inside your own little homer head that says, "It must be KG and Ray and all the new open looks and great passes and great finishers!" It's not. Defense was foundation of the team's championship. In that respect, you'd be freaking insane to trade Rondo for Calderon.

[eatyourchildren]

I would argue against some of the teams you listed as teams he would start for. The Cavs for instance absolutely need guards who can shoot. Same with Orlando. If you don't see Rondo as a liability, then who in this league is?

Your comment about Ainge not trading Rondo for Calderon just screams championship high horse by the way. I can't imagine how awful his offensive numbers would be if he received the attention Calderon gets or if his shots were even contested.

For the billionth time...

Rondo in '06-07, in the 25 games he started:
10.6 pts, 5.4 reb, 5.8 ast, 2.4 steals, 47.4% FG

Kill that notion inside your own little homer head that says, "It must be KG and Ray and all the new open looks and great passes and great finishers!" It's not. Defense was foundation of the team's championship. In that respect, you'd be freaking insane to trade Rondo for Calderon.

You'd be insane to say that the Celtics defense would go to shambles if Rondo's not in there. Oh wait, you did say that...

[wigglestrue]

I am intrigued to know how you define a top 10 PG. Rondo is top 10 in defense and rebounding, but he's not a top 10 playmaker and he doesn't perform consistently enough to be considered a borderline allstar.

Rondo is at worst top 3 in defense and top 3 in rebounding. It's really more like top 1 in defense and top 2 in rebounding. He's a good playmaker, probably NBA average in that regard at the very least. Best defensive PG in the NBA who's also good on offense? That's top 10.

That's like ignoring all the games Jazz lose and say Boozer had a good playoff run. No one who is sane will analyze players on only games that they WIN.

OMFG.

See, thing is...THE CELTICS DIDN'T LOSE.

So in measuring how much Rondo contributed to the CHAMPIONSHIP, which was awarded to the Celtics after they won sixteen individual games, why on earth is it anything less than sane to look at how he contributed to the wins. People here would sure as ******* hell pipe up if most of his good games came during losses and most of the wins involved him not really contributing.

I have never said Rondo was the sole reason why the Cs went 7 games, but his sporadic play is a part of why Boston were struggling in round 1 and 2(the other part being the epic failure Ray Allen). You really want to make the argument that the Hawks and Cavs elevated their play against the Celtics? Look at how the Hawks and the Cavs finish the end of the season, a team does not play .500 ball and then suddenly steps up.

Which sub-section of the NBA Book of Universal Laws are you taking that from? Puh-lease.

If anything it was the Cs not being mentally prepared for the playoff atmosphere which made them play a level below their potential. When Bibby said the Cs have matchup problem against the Hawks, everyone laughed, and when the Cavs fans say it's possible for the Cavs to pull an upset, people stare with wide eyes at the thought of a struggling post-trade Cavs even putting a dent on the Cs, Delonte West and Wally to defend the perimeter? Big Ben to defend KG? In all honesty, I did think the Cavs stepped up, but not to the point where the series wasn't decided until the final 30 seconds of game 7 when Lebron airballed the floater.

As I said: The Celtics needed their playoff cherry popped (twice) AND it so happens that yeah, the Hawks and Cavs posed the toughest matchup for the Celtics, AND both of those teams are underrated by the RealGM mob consensus.

Going back to Rondo, I have no doubt he could be an allstar, but right now? If you see a guard playing on a different team, and he has Duncan, Bosh, and Lebron. Would you have labeled him top 10 regardless of how well he played?

Huh? I'm labelling Rondo top 10 BECAUSE OF HOW WELL HE PLAYED, not "regardless". Christ.

[wigglestrue]

You'd be insane to say that the Celtics defense would go to shambles if Rondo's not in there. Oh wait, you did say that...

Quote me accurately. Thanks.

"Take away Rondo and the team defense starts to unravel. Replace him with a poor defender, I don't care how well he shoots, and the team defense starts to disintegrate."

So: Take away Rondo and the team defense STARTS TO UN-RAV-EL.
But: Replace him with a poor defender (Calderon) and it STARTS TO DISINTEGRATE.

I know distinctions like that might be too subtle for someone who doesn't think KG was the undisputed leader of the Celtics this year. But if you try hard and concentrate extra special, it might sink in.

[eatyourchildren]

You'd be insane to say that the Celtics defense would go to shambles if Rondo's not in there. Oh wait, you did say that...

Quote me accurately. Thanks.

"Take away Rondo and the team defense starts to unravel. Replace him with a poor defender, I don't care how well he shoots, and the team defense starts to disintegrate."

So: Take away Rondo and the team defense STARTS TO UN-RAV-EL.
But: Replace him with a poor defender (Calderon) and it STARTS TO DISINTEGRATE.

I know distinctions like that might be too subtle for someone who doesn't think KG was the undisputed leader of the Celtics this year. But if you try hard and concentrate extra special, it might sink in.

Except the team defense didn't unravel when he wasn't there. House is a poor defender, and did the Celtics disintegrate? No.

And lulz at saying Rondo is good on offense. Since when?

PG's are supposed to be distributors, so stop touting his defense as some critical component.

[circushots]

Good to know I'm not the only person who likes hyperbole.

I understand that he's an able passer, but when you're a subpar shooter and indecisive at the PG position, you're a liability.

Which game...4? Because that's the only game the Celtics won in which Rondo wasn't starting and playing PG for most of the game. I mean, come on. COME ON. Eddie ******* House was a huge factor in the series...but Rondo wasn't??????? Eddie House was a major factor in winning a single game of the four we won, a game that eventually turned into his kind of let-her-rip atmosphere because the Celtics were down so badly and needed threes. Please tell me when Eddie was a major factor again, and if you weren't joking please tell me if you actually think Eddie House was a more important factor than Rondo.

Also, take another look at this sentence, take a nice long look:

"You're playing with three of the best offensive players in the league, and you still manage to struggle greatly with scoring the ball?"

Hmmm.

What exactly did you want him to do? I would have loved it had he taken several more open jumpers, jumpers he's totally capable of hitting, and if he'd finished around the rim with at least as soft a touch as he had during the regular season (instead of missing several bunnies). That's about it. People are acting as if he went ******* scoreless throughout the playoffs and single-handedly screwed up the Celtics offensive flow, the same flow that won most of the games he was in, the same flow that won an NBA championship. People are acting as if whenever he passed up an open shot that it instantly screwed up that Celtics possession, as if he didn't often rally in that same possession for a good attempt from somebody. In other words, people are acting as if they DIDN'T WATCH THE SERIES.

About the House comment, perhaps I wasn't clear. Basically, I meant that as a guy who played very little and rode the pine for much of the beginning of the series, you could tell that he made a great impact when he was in the games. If you couldn't see how when he and Posey were in the game they made their recurrent comebacks from 17, 24 down, then I don't know what to say. It's not to say that he played a greater overall role than Rondo in the series, but what he showed was that the Celtic offense flowed much better when House was there. Now imagine if they had an able ball handler who could also shoot.

Regarding the struggle to score. If he's missing jumpers and layups, I think it's more than fair to say that he was struggling. And I thought it was pretty obvious from what I said that the offense if anything should open up when playing with 3 all stars.

The fact is, Rondo does fine with the Celtics because they are built to defend, and that is what he is built to do. They don't really need his playmaking because the big three can each create themselves and for each other, and they can for the most part live with his lack of being an offensive threat. If you want to label him as a top point guard because of that, and you truly believe that he could lead a more pedestrian team to the playoffs, then that's your opinion. I don't.

Rondo > Hinrich, arguably Miller.
Arenas is not a real PG.

Guess who wouldn't let Calderon 5000 feet near this team if it meant giving up Rondo? Ainge. 99% of people who actually watched the majority of Celtics games this year. People who, maybe thanks to the media repeating it enough, finally realize that defense wins championships. Thank christ none of you has any control over the Celtics roster. "Well shoot, if Rondo's defense is vastly improved by being in that system next to those teammates [sic: it's not vastly improved, he was just about as great a defender last year] then surely Jose's defense will become that good too!" No. Take away Rondo and the team defense starts to unravel. Replace him with a poor defender, I don't care how well he shoots, and the team defense starts to disintegrate.

Meh, defense is huge and that's why the Celtics won, we all know that. But there is always a balance between offense and defense. I do believe that inserting a guy like Calderon would have gotten them to the finals just the same. The fact is that their interior defense is solid with Garnett, Pierce and Perk, and he'd likely buy into the team defense anyway (and would look far better than how he looks defensively for the Raps).

Oh for the love of christ, WHAT THE HELL HAS DEVIN HARRIS DEMONSTRATED OR ACCOMPLISHED THAT RONDO HASN'T? "Poor man's Devin Harris", jesus that's so (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Sorry, I'm not mad at you personally dude. I just can't take any more ignorance about Rondo.

He played an integral role in the Mavs' playoff runs before he was traded, is arguably a top 3 defender at the PG spot (and can man up combo guards like Wade with the best of them). Offensively, he's made large strides. Great transition player, one of the fastest end to end, and has developed 3 pt range. I think certainly many would agree with me that Harris is a better player than Rondo at this time. No offense taken, by the way.

[yunggunz]

Rondo > Hinrich, arguably Miller.
Arenas is not a real PG.

Dude, no. Even with Hinrich's "awful" season, his numbers were still better than Rondo's across the board. More assists, more points, better assist/TO ratio......and thats after the WORST season of his career. Add to it the fact that Hinrich has a better jumper nad can defend taller PG's and Sg's, and the clear choice is Hinrich (even if he is overpaid).

As for Miller....he is a much better decision maker and play maker compared to Rondo. His jumper is more consistent (especially from 16 feet and in), he has a wider offensive arsenal, and knows how to be a floor general. If you swap Andre Miller for Rajon Rondo last season, the Sixers end up as one of the worst 3 teams in the East.

Take away Rondo and the team defense starts to unravel. Replace him with a poor defender, I don't care how well he shoots, and the team defense starts to disintegrate.

Hardly. House isnt any better a defender than Calderon, and the difference in defensive efficiency when Rondo was at PG and when House was at PG was negligible last season. Not saying Rondo isnt a very good defender, but the Celtics defense was not predicated on any one player (aside from Garnett) but rather the team playing in sync.

Oh for the love of christ, WHAT THE HELL HAS DEVIN HARRIS DEMONSTRATED OR ACCOMPLISHED THAT RONDO HASN'T? "Poor man's Devin Harris", jesus that's so (Please Use More Appropriate Word). Sorry, I'm not mad at you personally dude. I just can't take any more ignorance about Rondo.

[/quote]
Rondo will be lucky to be as good as Harris. You think the Nets would have taken Rondo for Kidd? No way in hell.

[eatyourchildren]

His next response: "Rajon Rondo is OVERWHELMINGLY the best PG in the league"

Davis
Paul
Williams
Parker
Nash
Kidd
Harris
Miller
AI
Arenas
Billups

All guys I'd take over Rondo, without hesitation.

[JD225]

I would argue against some of the teams you listed as teams he would start for. The Cavs for instance absolutely need guards who can shoot. Same with Orlando. If you don't see Rondo as a liability, then who in this league is?

Your comment about Ainge not trading Rondo for Calderon just screams championship high horse by the way. I can't imagine how awful his offensive numbers would be if he received the attention Calderon gets or if his shots were even contested.

For the billionth time...

Rondo in '06-07, in the 25 games he started:
10.6 pts, 5.4 reb, 5.8 ast, 2.4 steals, 47.4% FG

Kill that notion inside your own little homer head that says, "It must be KG and Ray and all the new open looks and great passes and great finishers!" It's not. Defense was foundation of the team's championship. In that respect, you'd be freaking insane to trade Rondo for Calderon.

Even in 06/07 he wasn't being defended. Now you have guys like Kobe guarding him several feet away and Delonte West playing the passing lanes. Put Rondo on a team like the Raptors, Cavs or Magic and he would automatically be sent to the bench in favour of starting guards who can shoot.

Rondo was the 5th best player on your championship run by the way. I'll gladly take Calderon and his terrible defense over Rondo and his terrible shooting.

[wigglestrue]

I understand that he's an able passer, but when you're a subpar shooter and indecisive at the PG position, you're a liability.

Uh, no.

A. Subpar shooting and indecisiveness are individual liabilities in his game.

B. Rondo is not himself a liability.

Whether or not the mob (= you people) differentiates between A and B is almost completely a matter of the mob bending to the buildup or lack thereof of establishment media hype, not much of which gets fixated on players who tend to do things on the court besides score. Once you get the green signal from ESPN that it's okay to respect Rondo and give him his due, whenever the sports pseudo-intelligentsia turns that light green, there'll be all sorts of backtracking, you'll be practically gliding backward to the thrust of this thread, moonwalking into reality as if there was nothing amiss. ****, you sort of knew it all along. Sheep. Posers. And with someone actually writing Rondo was the 5th best player, I bid this thread goodbye!

[circushots]

Wiggles, I wrote offensive liability, not a liability in general.

Regarding Rondo in general, I don't get why you feel that I'm disrespecting the guy by saying he isn't a top 10 player. I have conceded that he's a great defender. What else? He's an amazing offensive rebounder and rebounder in general, good penetrator when he's got his confidence going, and he's a good transition player.

But he has lots of holes in his game, and these prevent him from being as good as he can be right now. I thought I was just stating the obvious.

[microfib4thewin]

Perhaps I should have worded it better, with three superstars to alleviate pressure off Rondo's shoulder, even when Allen didn't show up, Rondo has plenty of help from Pierce and KG as well as the Boston shooters which allows him to penetrate the paint and do what he usually do. Even then, Rondo has his fair share of bad games, which YOU COMPLETELY NEGATE BECAUSE YOU DON'T COUNT GAMES WHERE RONDO ISN'T A FACTOR. HAY RAY ALLEN MUST BE TOP 10 BECAUSE HE DISAPPEARED IN THE PLAYOFF UNTIL GAME 5 AGAINST DETROIT, BUT HE MUST BE GOOD BECAUSE Cs ARE CHAMPS. Now let's say Rondo has been promoted as the second scoring option because KG and Allen are both injured for an extended period of time. Can Rondo play the same way even with the defense keying in on him? If he can do that, then he can be considered top 10. Otherwise, he's just the beneficiary of having three star players with good shooting to take attention off of him. Tony Parker of 04 was a system player, and I didn't consider him a star player until he learned his jumper, improved his decision making to earn Pop's trust, and has taken the load off Duncan at running the offense.

[JD225]

And with someone actually writing Rondo was the 5th best player, I bid this thread goodbye!

In the playoffs... I felt Garnett, Allen, Pierce and Posey were the top 4 Celtics. Am I missing something?

[yunggunz]

I understand that he's an able passer, but when you're a subpar shooter and indecisive at the PG position, you're a liability.

Uh, no.

A. Subpar shooting and indecisiveness are individual liabilities in his game.

B. Rondo is not himself a liability.

Whether or not the mob (= you people) differentiates between A and B is almost completely a matter of the mob bending to the buildup or lack thereof of establishment media hype, not much of which gets fixated on players who tend to do things on the court besides score. Once you get the green signal from ESPN that it's okay to respect Rondo and give him his due, whenever the sports pseudo-intelligentsia turns that light green, there'll be all sorts of backtracking, you'll be practically gliding backward to the thrust of this thread, moonwalking into reality as if there was nothing amiss. ****, you sort of knew it all along. Sheep. Posers. And with someone actually writing Rondo was the 5th best player, I bid this thread goodbye!

LMAO. Pretend the Celtics never traded for Garnett and never traded for Ray Allen.

No one....youself included, would even think about putting Rondo in the top 15. Hell, had the Celtics been knocked out by the Hawks, it would be the same story.

Lets put it this way: if Rondo was a top 10 PG, why was it so hard for them to get past the ATL and Cleveland?

[eatyourchildren]

Wiggles, I wrote offensive liability, not a liability in general.

Regarding Rondo in general, I don't get why you feel that I'm disrespecting the guy by saying he isn't a top 10 player. I have conceded that he's a great defender. What else? He's an amazing offensive rebounder and rebounder in general, good penetrator when he's got his confidence going, and he's a good transition player.

But he has lots of holes in his game, and these prevent him from being as good as he can be right now. I thought I was just stating the obvious.

No, he's a complete player. Switch him out with any of the other top 10 point guards and their records stay the same or improve.

[yunggunz]

Wiggles, I wrote offensive liability, not a liability in general.

Regarding Rondo in general, I don't get why you feel that I'm disrespecting the guy by saying he isn't a top 10 player. I have conceded that he's a great defender. What else? He's an amazing offensive rebounder and rebounder in general, good penetrator when he's got his confidence going, and he's a good transition player.

But he has lots of holes in his game, and these prevent him from being as good as he can be right now. I thought I was just stating the obvious.

No, he's a complete player. Switch him out with any of the other top 10 point guards and their records stay the same or improve.

lolerz

[Baller 24]

Lol, how is Arenas not a PG? if you got to 82games.com and look at the 2006-2007 season then he is a Point Guard, he has spent most of his time at that position. So yes, Arenas is a PG and is better then Rondo.

Lol at Rondo being better then Miller
How?
Hinrich is the better scorer, defender, play maker, rebounder, 3 point shooter, and I know its your opinion, but you can make a thread over Hinrch vs Rondo, and I'm pretty sure about over 60-80% will say Hinrich. I know this past season hasn't been the best, but besides this past season, his Win shares have been terrific and pretty above average for a point guard of his caliber.

Lol at saying Rondo is better then Miller
How?
MUCH better playmaker, Rondo may have the slight edge defensively, Miller is the better rebounder, comparable scorer, but Miller still beats him in that category.

Again, if you trade Rondo for Hinrich, do the Bulls get better or worse, and do the Celtics get better or worse? I'm pretty sure Hinrich would do a much better job at playing PG then Rondo, because he can give them a better playmaker, and a much better scorer, which adds a 3 point threat. Also a much better defender, even though they are comparable defenders. Can Rondo do what Miller did in Philly? Miller led a young team into the playoffs, can Rondo do that? I don't think so man.

Wigglestrue, I usually like your post, your usually unbiased, you have great knowledge, but I'm not a fan of this one...

[evilRyu]

If we took this entire thread, changed every occurrence of the word "Rondo" with "<random name>", and shown it to some random dink in the street, you will have him completely convinced that <random name> a surefire 1st ballot HOF.... this thread has been bookmarked for future viewing pleasure to revive comedic pleasure when I'm feeling like crap....