I hate this season (formerly Tapscott/Vets thread)

[Wizards2Lottery]

Jamison and Butler got exposed this year. They can't lead a team to anything but the worst record in the NBA. Both of them logging heavy minutes produced the same results as a team like the Memphis Grizzlies that plays with inexperienced young players.

With Haywood's defense and Gilbert's offense, this team is nothing but crap.

[Wizardspride]

Jamison and Butler got exposed this year. They can't lead a team to anything but the worst record in the NBA. Both of them logging heavy minutes produced the same results as a team like the Memphis Grizzlies that plays with inexperienced young players.

With Haywood's defense and Gilbert's offense, this team is nothing but crap.

And to think that some of us actually thought that you could build a team around Butler.

[Dat2U]

From the post:
""It's about more than just going out there and playing basketball," Jamison said. "It's about learning the right habits and being professional on and off the court, every day. I know that was something I had to learn when I was a young fella and it's the same for these guys. They have to understand that everything here is earned. Minutes are earned, opportunity is earned, shots are earned. It's a process that some of these guys had better figure out quick because next year, when we have our guys back, they won't be getting anything handed to them. This is a veteran team." "

This is, I guess, the most convincing argument so far why the youngsters aren't being spoon fed - so they don't get into the habit of expecting to be coddled.

But still. You know? Next year is next year, man.

Man, I'm so sick of Jamison words cannot describe it. I wonder how or why he feels so emboldened to think he's above and beyond reproach. He's never won anything of merit. His teams have never won anything. Yet he acts like he's been a part of dynasty or has fought and won his share of playoff wars. This dude is a joke. This "veteran team" has averaged about 42 wins a year prior to this season. This "veteran team" is a first round exit waiting to happen when healthy.

Even though he puts up big numbers and has averaged close to 20 & 10 over the last few seasons he's still not considered an elite player. Why? Because of his long and deserved reputation as one of the worst defenders in the league!

F- Jamison. I would have dealt him & DSong to Cleveland so fast it would have made your head spin.

I know I'm letting my frustrations cloud my judgement a bit but I'm so ready throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to this veteran core. I'd be more than willing to trade Caron, but only for what I'd perceive as a better player or better fit. Not in a cap dump. Jamison however just needs to go. I see no value whatsoever in his "leadership".

[nate33]

Let's not go overboard criticizing the play of Jamison and Butler (you can criticize Jamison's comments, but not his play). They are still producing. The numbers on the on/off differential back them up. They're not the reasons we're losing.

That said, we're not losing because of the youngsters either (well, except McGee). Young continues to lead the team in on/off differential. Blatche was doing real well but has definitely dropped off since coming back from injury. We're losing because James, Dixon and (earlier) Stevenson suck. Somehow, the good play of Jamison and Butler and Songaila has been exaggerated to suggest that ALL the vets are playing well and ALL the youngsters except McGuire have played poorly. Statistically, that is not the case.

Tapscott should play the guys that give us the best chance of winning. Looking at the numbers, that would be: Jamison, Butler, DMac, Young, Blatche, Songaila and Crittenton. All those guys should get 30+ minutes, except maybe Songaila who can't play that long without fouling out.

[fishercob]

Tapscott should play the guys that give us the best chance of winning. Looking at the numbers, that would be: Jamison, Butler, DMac, Young, Blatche, Songaila and Crittenton. All those guys should get 30+ minutes, except maybe Songaila who can't play that long without fouling out.

And it's worth noting that among our top seven, we don't have a true center, or a legit lead guard.

[ZonkertheBrainless]

yeah i noticed that too

[doclinkin]

With role guys such as Haywood (his size and defensive quarterbacking is a major loss), Stevenson and Thomas out, and vet Antonio Daniels traded in December, the roster quickly turns tender, with six players 23 or younger. Nick Young is the oldest of the youngsters, followed by Dominic McGuire, Oleksiy Pecherov, Andray Blatche, Crittenton and JaVale McGee. "We expected guys to pick up things on the fly," Jamison said, "but we've had to understand that not everybody can learn the game that way. It's been a lot about us learning how to communicate, get a point across to them."

McGuire, the 6-foot-9 forward from Fresno State, and the 47th pick in the '07 draft, has been a bright spot. "He's probably been the one consistent young fella we've had out there," Jamison said. "But in our situation, we take it game by game, whoever's going to step up."

A visitor to Washington's locker room Monday night revealed all sorts of roughhousing, jabbering and clowning around, and remarked that this might be the most immature post-game locker room in the league. Giddy, maybe, from a 110-99 victory over the Timberwolves? Nah, said a staffer. They're like this every night.

Soon the group will be getting younger, with one of the top spots in the draft this June. One possible selection: Oklahoma sophomore forward Blake Griffin, who -- if he comes out -- would bring size, toughness (meanness, even) and the maturity that comes with carrying a team through an extra college season.

Sports Illustrated.

[doclinkin]

Best thing about this draft is the depth of seriously competitive individuals with 'win' as their only desire. This team needs an infusion of the right kind of attitude. Coach down, and from the newest rookie on up.

Griffin, Harden, Hill, Blair, Curry from of the top of the draft on down there are a ton of fighters and veteran upperclassmen.

[hands11]

Jamison and Butler got exposed this year. They can't lead a team to anything but the worst record in the NBA. Both of them logging heavy minutes produced the same results as a team like the Memphis Grizzlies that plays with inexperienced young players.

With Haywood's defense and Gilbert's offense, this team is nothing but crap.

And to think that some of us actually thought that you could build a team around Butler.

Come on people. Get a grip. Look at what happened this year with the injuries.

LOOK.. NO CENTER. NO PG. NO ELITE DRIVING PLAYER. NO 3 BALL SHOOTERS = NO WINS

IT"S THAT SIMPLE

CB is a player who can be a core player on a champion team. We all know he isn't Kobe or Wade. He doesn't have those one on one skills but that doesn't mean he isn't a great player. So would you keep him over players like that? no But he is a player I would take as a core of a winning team. That's kind of also building around.

He is consistently in a unique class

20+, 6 rebounds 4 assists. Something like that.


WE WERE THE MOST INJURED TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.

Haywood and GA along fill those needs at the top performance levels in the league.

[hands11]

Let's not go overboard criticizing the play of Jamison and Butler (you can criticize Jamison's comments, but not his play). They are still producing. The numbers on the on/off differential back them up. They're not the reasons we're losing.

That said, we're not losing because of the youngsters either (well, except McGee). Young continues to lead the team in on/off differential. Blatche was doing real well but has definitely dropped off since coming back from injury. We're losing because James, Dixon and (earlier) Stevenson suck. Somehow, the good play of Jamison and Butler and Songaila has been exaggerated to suggest that ALL the vets are playing well and ALL the youngsters except McGuire have played poorly. Statistically, that is not the case.

Tapscott should play the guys that give us the best chance of winning. Looking at the numbers, that would be: Jamison, Butler, DMac, Young, Blatche, Songaila and Crittenton. All those guys should get 30+ minutes, except maybe Songaila who can't play that long without fouling out.

Exactly. But it isn't so easy to line them up. To many players are missing something.

Blatche doesn't rebound enough often enough.
AJ cant defend.
CB cant go one on one and seems to have lost the 3 ball he had last year
DMAC doesnt have a 3 ball and does score well enough often enough
DSong doesnt rebound enough.
NY is to all over the place. Not consistent and to N1on5

It just hard to start Nick because he just has such a hard game to work in with others and he is so inconsistent. Lets see.

DSong, AB, AJ, CB, Crit with DMAC and NY off the bench.

That's probably the best we can do with DSong and AB maybe flipping between center and pf and CB and AJ flipping between sf and sg type rolls. But the blend would probably work ok. You have 4 players who will pass the ball. 3 vet 1 younger and 1 medium. AB and DSong would be decently tough in the post though AB would really have to focus on rebounding. But AJ, CB and Crit all rebound. There is enough scoring and you have a PG who can fast break.

What you do next depends on who you are playing and the match ups.

You can then move CB down and pull in NY.

AB, DSong, CB, NY, Crit

or

AB, AJ, CB, NY, Crit

or

AB, AJ, CB, DMAC, Crit

Its just touch this year with so many piayers missing and McGee and Crit so inexperienced.

[fishercob]

With role guys such as Haywood (his size and defensive quarterbacking is a major loss), Stevenson and Thomas out, and vet Antonio Daniels traded in December, the roster quickly turns tender, with six players 23 or younger. Nick Young is the oldest of the youngsters, followed by Dominic McGuire, Oleksiy Pecherov, Andray Blatche, Crittenton and JaVale McGee. "We expected guys to pick up things on the fly," Jamison said, "but we've had to understand that not everybody can learn the game that way. It's been a lot about us learning how to communicate, get a point across to them."

McGuire, the 6-foot-9 forward from Fresno State, and the 47th pick in the '07 draft, has been a bright spot. "He's probably been the one consistent young fella we've had out there," Jamison said. "But in our situation, we take it game by game, whoever's going to step up."

A visitor to Washington's locker room Monday night revealed all sorts of roughhousing, jabbering and clowning around, and remarked that this might be the most immature post-game locker room in the league. Giddy, maybe, from a 110-99 victory over the Timberwolves? Nah, said a staffer. They're like this every night.

Soon the group will be getting younger, with one of the top spots in the draft this June. One possible selection: Oklahoma sophomore forward Blake Griffin, who -- if he comes out -- would bring size, toughness (meanness, even) and the maturity that comes with carrying a team through an extra college season.

Sports Illustrated.

I'd like to try to balance some of the invective directed at Jamison for crazy things like insisting on professionalism from his teammates, by expressing my disgust at these immature a-holes.

From Ivan's report card on Songaila:

The vision that always comes to my mind when I think about Songaila is walking into that locker room before a game and seeing him sitting at his stall calmly watching a tape of that night's opponent while reading over a scouting report. Meantime, some of the team's young guys are usually bouncing off the walls goofing off. (It's Romper Room folks, pure and simple.)

I've always maintained that if Blatche and JaVale McGee really wanted to learn how to play the game, they'd study Songaila. Another thing that I respect about Songaila is that losing still hurts the guy. I can't say that about many of the players on this team. In fact, if you walk in that room after most games, you wouldn't know whether they won or lost.

Are you kidding me? You're making seven figures and you still haven't figured out how to conduct yourself like a fugging professional? No wonder Jamison's pissed off and "throwing the kids under the bus," as people whine about. How would you feel if you were busting you ass and getting everything you could out of your limited abilities, while your uber-talented and gifted teammates conducted themselves like this -- all while you were getting your ass beat night in and night out?

And a further F U to these kids, because one of their own -- Dom McGuire -- has figured it out. According to HHM's chat with Tap, he's one of the hardest workers and best preparers on the entire team. Lo and behold -- shock of all shocks!!! -- he's getting consistent PT!

Can we hire Charles Oakley on a contract basis for the simple purpose of beating the shidd out of these little punks? Because for all the talk of this "flawed roster" that Grunfeld has assembled, if this little pricks would devote themselves to their craft -- and to their team, selfish children -- than we have enough pure talent to win the East.

The selfish, immature, ill-prepared, entitled, unprofessional kids are what I hate about this team.

End of rant. Back to your regularly scheduled whining about the coach, GM, and veterans who actually conduct themselves with class and professionalism.

[Ruzious]

Fish, I'm not sure it's fair to blame the kids. Fwiw, of the young guys - I've heard Critter is a very hard worker who does put in the time to review tapes and is always trying to improve his game. And Ivan's comments were not limited to the kids. I'm assuming he meant some of the vets as well - perhaps Dixon, James, Haywood, Arenas, Butler, etc. Blatche sounds like a perpetual problem - and probably a bad influence on Javale. Overall, there seems to be a lack of organizational leadership. We tend to assume that veterans = leadership, with the problem being on the kids' tudes. Well, I wonder if the problem is more that some of our veterans are the cause - and be careful what you wish for when asking for a specific veteran to come in and lay the law down.

[fishercob]

True leaders lead by example. Seven figure professionals should not have to be told -- over and over and over -- this is how to prepare, to conduct ones self, sacrifice theur personal agenda for the good of the team. It's not Jamison's or Tapscott's or Songaila's or Butler's job to make Blatche, Young and McGee act like grownups.

This board has gone absolutely MAD blaming anyone other than these children for their actions and associated consequences. Obama himself keeps talking about the importance of personal responsiblity. When's it going to sink in with our young talents, who act like jack offs and expect praise and PT in return?

Ruz, blaming the kids is no less fair than it is to blame Jamison or Tapscott for the fact that the kids haven't grown up.

[Ruzious]

You missed my point, King - some of the veterans are probably the ones acting like children. "The kids" aren't the problem. It's the ones who act like children - which includes veterans. Veteran does not equal mature. I'd bet that the same percentage of veterans as young players are the problem children. So stop assuming all the young players are the bad apples - when we know that Dom and Crit are good kids. And of the vets, we know Jamison and Songaila have good tudees.

If Daniels retires, he'd be a good one to bring back as an assistant coach.

[Wizards2Lottery]

So Ernie has put together a nucleus of immature young punks who don't care about winning and losing or working hard.

Terrific! This is a wonderful franchise. Everything seems dysfunctional from the top to the bottom.

and btw the only person I'm convinced who is a nutcase is Blatche. Young just seems like a happy go lucky guy and I have yet to see McGee show any sort of emotion and find it hard to believe that he could be goofing around in the locker room. He also comes from a strong family background, doesn't seem like the guy who's oblivious to getting better at basketball.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

fisher, I think immaturity has something to do with their being 21, 22, or 23 years old.

Shortsightedness in management has too many young guys on the team.

Grunfeld didn't draft mature guys like Millsap or Chalmers when he could have. Instead, he drafted one guy with character issues and another who had major learning disabilities.

ON TOP OF THAT firing a good lockerroom coach, Eddie Jordan, for a complete suckup Ed Tapscott, hasn't helped team chemistry. EJ would have had his favorites, too, but the lockerroom stuff he handled strong behind the scenes. Jordan was a better players coach than Tapscott.

LAST POINT: Jamison's played up to his standards. He has consistently brought it to the best of his ability, which is real good on the offensive end. What he has NEVER DONE is accept his part in the losing. In fact he's blaming the young guys for the losses. That's what I'm upset about. Not his play or his character. I can understand him being upset with the juvenile behavior in the locker room.

The GM drafted those guys.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Oh and one of the highest paid goofballs in the league happens to be on our team. Arenas, despite how hard he works off the court, is probably as immature as it gets. He's also selfishly put his own interests ahead of the team at times (games like the stinkers he threw against Nate McMillan and the Blazers come to mind). I do give him credit for shutting down his blog this year though. Good move and hopefully a sign of future maturity.

Where as this whole hard work over talent talk, I call BS on half of this. This team came close to alienating a key player in Haywood because of favoritism. This team favored scrubs and hacks like Michael Ruffin with PT but a guy who probably works as hard as Ruff in Pecherov can't sniff the court? Locker room favorite DeShawn Stevenson, one of the more well liked players in the locker room is IMO the biggest moron on this team. Waving his hand in front of his face and showboating because he hit a meaningless three in a blowout, terrific show of veteran leadership and professionalism.

Please, there is some serious favoritism problems this franchise has had for years. Loyalty to sucky players, sucky coaches and sucky general managers. Whatever is going on, Ernie needs to start being held accountable for building this mess, talent wise and financial wise.

Signed,
Disgruntled Wizards Fan

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

You missed my point, King - some of the veterans are probably the ones acting like children. "The kids" aren't the problem. It's the ones who act like children - which includes veterans. Veteran does not equal mature. I'd bet that the same percentage of veterans as young players are the problem children. So stop assuming all the young players are the bad apples - when we know that Dom and Crit are good kids. And of the vets, we know Jamison and Songaila have good tudees.

If Daniels retires, he'd be a good one to bring back as an assistant coach.

Just from the outside looking in, that's exactly my perception. McGuire, as my late uncle used to say, is "serious as a heart attack". Crittenton looks to be very professional, too.

Young, Blatche, McGee, and OPEC ... IMO act their age. I'm pretty sure they play hard in practice but they are young kids, and in some cases young-minded kids.

As for Blatche, one thing he does, immature or not, is try to play good defense. Jamison can't do what Blatche does on defense. Andray could lecture Jamison on defense IMO.

[fishercob]

You missed my point, King - some of the veterans are probably the ones acting like children. "The kids" aren't the problem. It's the ones who act like children - which includes veterans. Veteran does not equal mature. I'd bet that the same percentage of veterans as young players are the problem children. So stop assuming all the young players are the bad apples - when we know that Dom and Crit are good kids. And of the vets, we know Jamison and Songaila have good tudees.

If Daniels retires, he'd be a good one to bring back as an assistant coach.

I specifically highlighted McGuire as an exception that proves the rule -- conduct yourself like a pro and work hard, and you'll be rewarded with PT.

Ruz, I named Blatche, Young and Mcgee. We only know of the former two acting the fool (and in Blacthe's case, being a complete idiot). I mentioned McGee with this group because he has shown -- with his play, in actual games -- that he's not ready for prime time on the defensive end. Doesn't rotate properly, tries to block everything, goes for shot fakes easily, etc. I'd suspect that he does much of this in practice too, and so the coaches don't see the sense in playing him big minutes in games until he figures out how to defend in practice. As for what vets contribute to the "romper room" atmosphere, it's pure speculation, because no one has been named in any reports.

G0A points to the elephant in the room -- Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert has gotten away with his quirks because he's a tireless worker and has been a great player (at least on offense). I think we'd all like to see him devote himself to defense the way he has to offense. But shame on anyone who thinks they can act like a dummy because Gilbert does. Until you hit the shots Gil has, know your place. It's like Crash Davis castigating Nuke Laloosh for having fungus on his shower shoes in A-ball.

CCJ, you are right that Chalmers and Millsap were more finished products than a lot of our kids when they were drafted. My guess is that Ernie knows that too, but thinks -- and hopes -- that with time and maturity, our kids' superior talents make them more valuable than proven, but lower upside guys. And maybe that's his biggest fault, putting his trust into to talented babies to actually grow up.

But CCJ, age is NO EXCUSE for immaturity in the case of some of our young players. It may explain it, but when you sign that contract for all that money, responsibilities come with it. Act like a man.

[Wizards2Lottery]

G0A points to the elephant in the room -- Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert has gotten away with his quirks because he's a tireless worker and has been a great player (at least on offense). I think we'd all like to see him devote himself to defense the way he has to offense. But shame on anyone who thinks they can act like a dummy because Gilbert does. Until you hit the shots Gil has, know your place. It's like Crash Davis castigating Nuke Laloosh for having fungus on his shower shoes in A-ball.

Selective cherry pickings. Gilbert has hit his fair share of game winners and has been a terrific offensive player, but like you said, his defense stinks and the athleticism excuse doesn't work because he is as athletic as it gets. Laziness is all that points to him being an atrocious defender. All the time he spent being hibachi and being a clown on and off the court could have been used on defense which would have been a step into solving this teams main problem: DEFENSE.

He has a lot more going for him than the other idiots on this team, but it's not like he should be immune to criticism. Butler, Jamison and Arenas should all look in the mirror before they throw some one under the bus. The crap defense and inconsistent play in the past hasn't been a one man problem. The effort night in and night out hasn't exactly been the staple of this team and throwing the young players under the bus for almost everything is unfair.

The rookies seem to be the new excuse for this team to suck and hide behinds its deeper problems.