*Updated* Turkoglu's usage rate is lowest in 5 years!

[Jai Monee]

Our offense is working pretty well. Hard to argue that he needs the ball more for us to put up points.

+1

I still don't understand the people bringing up offence. I couldn't care less what Hedo's usage rate is, as long as offence is this deadly.

Did you watch the Utah game where we weren't scoring? Have you seen how many open shots we're still missing? Our efficiency is dropping quick offensively. It's not as insane as it was to start the season and Bosh is still a huge reason for that efficiency.

Pretend for a moment our offence is a 70 out of 100. And our defence is currently a 10 out of 100.

Total = 80 out of 200.

I think it's more likely and we have better assets to turn our offence to a 90 out of 100 and with hustle get our defence to a 30 out of 100 for a total of 120 out of 200 than it would be to get our defence up to 50 out of 100 for the same result. The Suns were once 100 out of 100 on offence by such a wide margin that they actually had the best record in the league with probably a 30 out of 100 defence.

I know we're not the Suns. I don't expect to be anywhere near a top team but I think if our offence was as good as it could be we'd certainly make the playoffs. We can't simply pretend that we're as good as we can be on that end and think that we have the weapons necessary to become a very good defensive team. I simply think we need to maximize our strengths and improve upon our weaknesses.

I also know the scale out of 100 examples are a bit ridiculous. Nobody needs to point that out. I just wanted to try and describe the way I see both ends of the court at the moment.

I've always thought that our offense was never the problem, we're putting 100 pts on the board and do so with relative ease, but this is a very interesting way to look at our strengths and weaknesses I've never really thought about. I'm not sure I totally agree, I'll have to think about this for a bit, but it's rare that I read anything on this board that makes me pause and think. Good stuff.

[jay632]

maybe if he actually hit some shots he would get more minutes... mister 4th quarter is nowhere to be seen.

[Stretch82]

Turk's role in Orlando was so plain simple and yet effective because he created match up problems. It was all about D12 screens/pick'n'rolls which created space for Hedo and he usually made the right pass to a wide open player or shot himself when he had enough space. The screens Bargs and Bosh are setting are poop and nobody of our shooters is moving enough when Hedo has the ball to get a wide open look. Lewis, Alston and Lee ran their asses off in the playoffs which is not happening on our team. So when Hedo has the ball in his hands there is not that much happening for us, which really isn't that surprising to me. In Orlando - with Nelson out - Hedo was the ball handler #1 on the floor. In Toronto he's sometimes with Cack on the floor, making it three ball handlers.

[Double Helix]

why do we think we should be the coach of the team all of a sudden? seriously, with technology being what it is nowadays and everyone being connected to each other, we all think we play a role in everyone's business.

coaching is far more than saying, "hey, give the ball to turkoglu more and that'll win us more games." it's one thing to complain about it on a message board, it's another to actually think we should actually be telling professionals how to do their job. "hey coach, a bunch of kids on the internet are wondering why turkoglu isn't being used more, and think you're strategy is (Please Use More Appropriate Word). can you please give us an answer to this question? otherwise, the wise thing to do would be to take the kids' advice." seriously?

Well, in any free press, the press generally acts as a voice for the people. If you're a political journalist you question the politics of people who are professional politicians. If you're a business journalist you question the decisions of business professionals and CEOs. And if you're a sport journalist, you question the decisions of professional athletes, ownership and management. This is the power of journalism; it can affect change and has affected change.

And to think that we're all just a bunch of "kids" wondering why Turkoglu isn't being used more is a little condescending. For one thing, I'm an adult and if the Toronto Blue Jays GM is any indicator of the qualifications necessary to becoming a GM in pro sports, I think any one of us, had we decided to focus on it and put in the necessary effort, could have had a career of some kind in professional sports management to varying degrees. Have you ever watched "behind the draft?" Jim Kelley, director of scouting for us, has been videotaped using nbadraft.net as a major source while scouting. I was writing to those guys about players 5 years ago and I know they're not very different than many of us on this message board. The fact remains that we did not choose that path and instead chose other more realistic targets as career paths and that's why we come on here... to live out those GMing dreams. It doesn't make us any less insightful.

And we're not simply wondering about whether Turkoglu is being used less. We have irrefutable data over the past 5 years tracking just that. I also compared where he's at with other players and showed where his usage was in previous years. There's clearly something different about the way he's being utilized here and on a 50 million dollar investment... it's in the Toronto media's and OUR best interest that people start asking questions and bringing up facts and trying to figure out why.

Without the pressure that comes from pointing the spotlight on specific targets... nothing changes.

[wille-dynamite]

Turk's role in Orlando was so plain simple and yet effective because he created match up problems. It was all about D12 screens/pick'n'rolls which created space for Hedo and he usually made the right pass to a wide open player or shot himself when he had enough space. The screens Bargs and Bosh are setting are poop and nobody of our shooters is moving enough when Hedo has the ball to get a wide open look. Lewis, Alston and Lee ran their asses off in the playoffs which is not happening on our team. So when Hedo has the ball in his hands there is not that much happening for us, which really isn't that surprising to me. In Orlando - with Nelson out - Hedo was the ball handler #1 on the floor. In Toronto he's sometimes with Cack on the floor, making it three ball handlers.

Couldn't agree more have to question our coaches offensive strategies when you see how effective he was last year....this year he seems like an average joe blow SF

[StopitLeo]

It's the big contract let down. *Sigh*

I read this while checking my fantasy league team and tonight's box scores and noticed Haywood on pace for another great night. He's always been solid but his play this season has been the best he's played ever so I decided to check out his salary situation and low and behold... it's a contract season and he's 31 years old so it's probably the last big contract he's going to get in the NBA.

These are dangerous contracts and we've got one.

We need to get the most out of this guy while we can. We need to force him to become more than he currently is on this team.

I think we have to put some of this on Triano. SVG probably tore into Hedo all the time to get him going. Hopefully Jay will be able to motivate Hedo. Here's a passage from one of my favourite Page 2 - Bill Simmons pieces. He and Malcom Gladwell were talking about contract years.

Gladwell: This is one of my favorite topics. Let's do Erick Dampier. In his contract year at Golden State, he essentially doubles his rebounds and increases his scoring by 50 percent. Then, after he signs with Dallas, he goes back to the player he was before. What can we conclude from this? The obvious answer is that effort plays a much larger role in athletic performance than we care to admit. When he tries, Dampier is one of the top centers in the league. When he doesn't try, he's mediocre. So a big part of talent is effort. The second obvious answer is that performance (at least in centers) is incredibly variable. The same person can be a mediocre center one year and a top 10 center the next just based on how motivated he is. So is Dampier a top 10 player or a mediocre player? There is no way to answer that. It depends. He's not inherently good or bad. He's both. The third obvious answer is that coaching matters. If you are a coach who can get Dampier to try, you can turn a mediocre center into a top 10 center. And you, the coach, will be enormously valuable. (This is why Phil Jackson is worth millions of dollars a year.) If you are a coach who can't get Dampier to try, then you're not that useful. (You may want to insert the name Doc Rivers at this point.)

Substitute Hedo Turkoglu for Erick Dampier and small forward for centre and it reads pretty true.

[neurotik]

It's the big contract let down. *Sigh*

I read this while checking my fantasy league team and tonight's box scores and noticed Haywood on pace for another great night. He's always been solid but his play this season has been the best he's played ever so I decided to check out his salary situation and low and behold... it's a contract season and he's 31 years old so it's probably the last big contract he's going to get in the NBA.

These are dangerous contracts and we've got one.

We need to get the most out of this guy while we can. We need to force him to become more than he currently is on this team.

I think we have to put some of this on Triano. SVG probably tore into Hedo all the time to get him going. Hopefully Jay will be able to motivate Hedo. Here's a passage from one of my favourite Page 2 - Bill Simmons pieces. He and Malcom Gladwell were talking about contract years.

Gladwell: This is one of my favorite topics. Let's do Erick Dampier. In his contract year at Golden State, he essentially doubles his rebounds and increases his scoring by 50 percent. Then, after he signs with Dallas, he goes back to the player he was before. What can we conclude from this? The obvious answer is that effort plays a much larger role in athletic performance than we care to admit. When he tries, Dampier is one of the top centers in the league. When he doesn't try, he's mediocre. So a big part of talent is effort. The second obvious answer is that performance (at least in centers) is incredibly variable. The same person can be a mediocre center one year and a top 10 center the next just based on how motivated he is. So is Dampier a top 10 player or a mediocre player? There is no way to answer that. It depends. He's not inherently good or bad. He's both. The third obvious answer is that coaching matters. If you are a coach who can get Dampier to try, you can turn a mediocre center into a top 10 center. And you, the coach, will be enormously valuable. (This is why Phil Jackson is worth millions of dollars a year.) If you are a coach who can't get Dampier to try, then you're not that useful. (You may want to insert the name Doc Rivers at this point.)

Substitute Hedo Turkoglu for Erick Dampier and small forward for centre and it reads pretty true.

Substitute Bargs for that matter

[StopitLeo]

Substitute Bargs for that matter

No really. His production hasn't dropped off a cliff. In fact, his numbers are slightly better than last year.

Hedo's numbers, however, look just like a guy who got a fat deal and is getting older and might not care anymore. I hope that's not the case, but I was just throwing out that Gladwell quote as a discussion point.

[Undefeated]

Triano needs to run more isolation plays for Turkoglu in the post, he would just literally score on a smaller player or blow past by a bigger defender. For some reason, we're not taking advantage of the height we have.

[lucky777s]

Looking at this list below the thing that stands out to me is that many of the people higher than Hedo do not really get any plays called for them. They find their role within the offense without hand holding or spoon feeding.

Even guys above Hedo's career best number, like Dunleavy and Maggette, are not really featured guys. They just go out and get theirs. They are aggressive.

Hedo needs to show some desire and work harder. But we saw in pre-season that he did not come in here with that attitude. He sat out most of camp and it is really showing. His conditioning looks off and I doubt he is putting in the extra effort to quickly get up to speed.

Hedon't is reminding me more of Jalen Rose these days with his laid back attitude and feeling of entitlement. Rose is another guy many Raps fans overrated and was out of the league after his last bloated contract. Working himself slowly into the season could cost the Raps a post season spot.

Hedo Turkoglu 18.83

Danilo Gallinari 18.89
DeMar DeRozan 19.06
Ryan Gomes 19.12
Omri Casspi 19.25
Richard Jefferson 19.47
Kelenna Azubuike 19.52
Wilson Chandler 19.66
Al Thornton 20.17
Gerald Wallace 20.18
Andres Nocioni 20.36
Jeff Green 20.46
Thaddeus Young 20.48
C.J. Miles 20.59
Donte Greene 20.67
Corey Brewer 21.20
Ersan Ilyasova 21.61
Luol Deng 21.65
Chase Budinger 21.85
Paul Pierce 22.38
Caron Butler 22.59
Trevor Ariza 23.47

------------> This is around where Hedo's usage rate was in 2007 and 2008 over the past 2 seasons

Stephen Jackson 24.54
Anthony Randolph24.59
Travis Outlaw 25.21
Corey Maggette 25.75
Mike Dunleavy 25.79
Alando Tucker 28.08
Danny Granger 29.61
Josh Howard 30.54
Kevin Durant 32.08
LeBron James 33.18
Carmelo Anthony 34.44

[jonny three time]

It's the Howard effect as well. His presence let Hedo do things that most teams wouldn't let him do on the offensive end. Throw risky interior passes, and miss layups whenever he wanted as long as Howard was in position. Bosh can't catch and finish in traffic the way Howard can, he doesn't set the same types of screens and he's not the offensive rebounder either. So Hedo doesn't get the time or space he used to in Orlando, while also having to abide by a more strict focus on efficiency.

Jose has a better understanding of efficiency so Jay is more comfortable using him as the main play-maker. Maybe once Hedo and Bosh/Bargs find a bit more chemistry with eachother Hedo could run some more plays. Although, it is ridiculous to have Jack running the offense instead of Hedo when Jose isn't out there. Jay has to smarten up there.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Question: How do you make $20 million disappear?

Answer: Put Jarrett Jack on the court with Jose and Hedo.


Jose and Hedo will work it out between themselves. Hedo definitely needs the ball more, but that will come with Jose feeling more comfortable about having help running the offense and learning how to play off the ball better. These are smart offensive players.

The problem is when Squinty Jack comes in off the bench and thinks he's the best man for the point job. He's just so much worse at running the offence than Jose or Hedo, and it pretty much turns us into a 3 man team on both ends when all three are on the court. Those guys are not off-ball players, nor defenders, so you pretty much get nothing out of them with JJ out there. He looks for one pass, and if it's not there he looks to the rim. That's not a PG.

If you're an opposing coach, you drool when you see that JJ/Jose/Hedo lineup. It means you can dare JJ to beat you, despite being the 5th best Raptor and 3rd best PG ON THE COURT, and he'll try until the final buzzer.

I agree with those who point the finger at Traino for Hedo's lack of involvement. Too much freedom for Jack and not enough P/Rs for Hedo to get him matchups to exploit.

[brownbobcat]

Here's the thing about Hedo's usage rate: the drop is primarily due to a decline in shots and FTA. A failure to get to the line is just as much Hedo's responsibility as it is Triano's. Using seemingly detailed stats to come to such a conclusion is somewhat faulty. What we'd really want to analyze is the number of plays initiated by Hedo, time with the ball, etc. compared to his Orlando seasons.

Furthermore, I don't think you can put the entire blame on Jack. His AST% is up, while shots and USG% is down. You can just as easily say that Hedo's shots have been going to Bosh, who is at career highs in terms of shots and usage. Obviously, the Jack/Jose combo is a killer in terms of eating up ball possession time, though.

[JWiLL02]

Question: How do you make $20 million disappear?

Answer: Put Jarrett Jack on the court with Jose and Hedo.


Jose and Hedo will work it out between themselves. Hedo definitely needs the ball more, but that will come with Jose feeling more comfortable about having help running the offense and learning how to play off the ball better. These are smart offensive players.

The problem is when Squinty Jack comes in off the bench and thinks he's the best man for the point job. He's just so much worse at running the offence than Jose or Hedo, and it pretty much turns us into a 3 man team on both ends when all three are on the court. Those guys are not off-ball players, nor defenders, so you pretty much get nothing out of them with JJ out there. He looks for one pass, and if it's not there he looks to the rim. That's not a PG.

This isn't Jack's fault. This is Triano's flawed logic thinking that having 3 guys on the floor who can handle the ball is going to cause the other team problems, when really it's just forcing guys on our side to play out of their comfort zone. Every time we have that line up in the game and Jack puts up a corner 3, I just think how that should be Belinelli shooting it (you know, that 41% 3pt shooter rotting on the bench!)

I guess in Jay's eyes he's just putting the best players out there on the floor, which may be true, but I can't believe he's still going to it after it frequently fails and there's numbers to back that up.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Question: How do you make $20 million disappear?

Answer: Put Jarrett Jack on the court with Jose and Hedo.

This isn't Jack's fault. This is Triano's flawed logic thinking that having 3 guys on the floor who can handle the ball is going to cause the other team problems, when really it's just forcing guys on our side to play out of their comfort zone. Every time we have that line up in the game and Jack puts up a corner 3, I just think how that should be Belinelli shooting it (you know, that 41% 3pt shooter rotting on the bench!)

I guess in Jay's eyes he's just putting the best players out there on the floor, which may be true, but I can't believe he's still going to it after it frequently fails and there's numbers to back that up.

Agree with it being a lot on Jay. And yes, it should be Beli out there instead of Jack, forgot to put that in there. Thing is, if you're playing your best 5 guys, Beli is #5 on the list. Imagine what he could be doing with regular minutes and playing with our best players more. You know that if BC had known we were getting Marco for free that Jack would be playing for another team or for much cheaper, even after he got them both he was calling him Beli the potential 6th man while planning for DD to start. I like that idea, still. BC is smartish.

And you're right, Beli should absolutely be that guy in the corner down the stretch, if for no other reason than you have to guard him. That opens up the middle a bit for easier shots off P&R plays, which is what I thought we were built for. And if you don't guard him, great, like you say. Guys like Jack and Wright can hit the occasional 3, which the D will live with, but Beli's the kind of guy who can hit 4 in a row and bury you.

If Jack is in the game at the end, it should only be if we're subbing offense/defense at the point for Jose. That's something I would love to see, actually, and I thought that was the idea when we brought Jack in. Come out with like 8-9 minutes left in the 4th, be ready for the last minute to defend, get the ball up the court and use your best PG skills to call a timeout if there's no layup.

I wonder if Triano and BC are on the same page.

[JWiLL02]

And you're right, Beli should absolutely be that guy in the corner down the stretch, if for no other reason than you have to guard him.

This is exactly my point. Beli could go 0-8 to that point in the game, but you can bet your ass a defender won't leave him open down the stretch. He's a constant threat, where as Wright's man is constantly floating into the paint to disrupt Bosh or help on the pick and roll. I've yet to see any impressive defense from him either, so it's puzzling as to exactly how he's earned these minutes.

Just look at the Minny game, DeMar had 15 points and he's taken out in favour of 0-5 Wright. Good on Wright for finally hitting a single shot, but we're a much better team with Beli in the game.

For every game winner Turk shot, there were 3 other games where he found an open player (Lewis, Jameer, Pietrus, etc) for a better shot. If we don't surround him with these options what is he supposed to do?

[Double Helix]

Today's win against Houston showed the best way to use Turkoglu. This was the Turk we saw in Orlando. And he's had two great games back to back now for us. Let's hope he continues to stay involved with the offence because it's easy for him to be productive when he's this involved in the offence.

[Raps_Swingman]

Turk is on the upswing. He had a slow start but I expect the other players and coaches to lean on him heavily down the stretch right into playoffs. Hes the perfect player to run this offence through.

[GamePoint]

Loved his mentality in the game today against Houston

[orangutooth]

halfway through december, and probably a lot due to injury, the coaching staff finally realizes what we've been saying on this board since game 3 of the season: turkoglu needs the ball in his hands much more!

the sad thing is, i bet jose will come back and jay will revert to how he had things earlier on in the year.

jay is either really stubborn or really lazy.