The Official 101 Thread: Offseason, Cap etc

[wilkens21]

Hmmm....hate to bring it up, but just in case we don't get what we want with the 2 MAX FA's (that we really want) and not do something dumb and waste it all Joe Johnson + Carlos Boozer or some less than desireable combination....

T-mac --> 9-10 mil
Lee --> 11 mill
??? ---> 10 mill

Rudy Gay? dunno....

Just throwing names out, but can we get 3 really, really good players rather than get saddled and I wonder what the fall back plan is...

[hoopdata]

That's wrong. Knicks have less cap space than that. There are minimum roster cap holds in place. I detailed this all in my link.

[knicks742]

You can sign veterans like Ginobili and Camby for a lot less and 2 year deals. Use the rest to provide cap relief to other teams and take picks/young talent and wait it out until 2012 or new CBA. We may not be a championship team after this summer but we are going to be a much, much better team.

[knickabocker88]

You Give Lee A Front Loaded Contract and tell him STFU

T_mac a 2 Year Deal (if he plays well enough)

Get Curry off the Books and take a run at a 2011 FA

[richardhutnik]

You can sign veterans like Ginobili and Camby for a lot less and 2 year deals. Use the rest to provide cap relief to other teams and take picks/young talent and wait it out until 2012 or new CBA. We may not be a championship team after this summer but we are going to be a much, much better team.

How about two max contracts then buy out Curry and use the money on Camby plus another player?

- Rich

[bringinhinkie]

Hmmm....hate to bring it up, but just in case we don't get what we want with the 2 MAX FA's (that we really want) and not do something dumb and waste it all Joe Johnson + Carlos Boozer or some less than desireable combination....

T-mac --> 9-10 mil
Lee --> 11 mill
??? ---> 10 mill

Rudy Gay? dunno....

Just throwing names out, but can we get 3 really, really good players rather than get saddled and I wonder what the fall back plan is...

whoaaaaaaa

chill, this isnt the 13points in 35 seconds tmac, this is the guy who could barely get up last year

it would be dump to waste on boozer/jj though i agree

[Bklyn&company]

You can sign veterans like Ginobili and Camby for a lot less and 2 year deals. Use the rest to provide cap relief to other teams and take picks/young talent and wait it out until 2012 or new CBA. We may not be a championship team after this summer but we are going to be a much, much better team.

And we should be. We have options now; and we still have a 2011 pick (Houston just have the option to swap).

[Schad]

That's wrong. Knicks have less cap space than that. There are minimum roster cap holds in place. I detailed this all in my link.

Actually, they have even less than what you detail in your link, if I'm reading this correctly:

First and foremost, the Knicks have 17,782,904 in guaranteed salaries between Curry, Gallinari, Douglas, and Chandler. After that, a cap hold is put in place for each roster spot under 12, filling in some of the Knicks' projected cap space. Because a team must have 12 players under contract at all times in the regular season, the CBA makes sure teams account for the minimum contracts they must use to fill out their roster before they use their cap space. The minimum rookie contract for the 10-11 season is 490,180. The Knicks thus also have 3,921,440 in cap holds (8 roster spots) to add to their salary in the offseason, putting them at a total of 21,704,344.

[...]

Assuming the Knicks and Curry agree to the buyout as stated above, that would net the Knicks cap savings of 909,327, because they'd have to add yet another cap hold to account for Curry no longer being there. This would put the Knicks up to 32,204,983 in cap space. If the goal is to sign two max players, you can also deduct two roster spot cap holds from the team's guaranteed salary, seeing how the max players would be filling those voids, {emphasis mine} so that brings the cap space up to 33,185,343.

Actually, you can't subtract both of those roster spot holds until after the players have signed. Assuming that they sign one at a time, you'll have to remove an extra ~$500k from their available space. All things taken into consideration, the only real chance the Knicks have of signing two max FAs is for at least one to come via sign-and-trade...and given that all of the max-worthy FAs want the Bird max that can only come by sign-and-trade, that's really the only route anyway.

[hoopdata]

That's wrong. Knicks have less cap space than that. There are minimum roster cap holds in place. I detailed this all in my link.

Actually, they have even less than what you detail in your link, if I'm reading this correctly:

First and foremost, the Knicks have 17,782,904 in guaranteed salaries between Curry, Gallinari, Douglas, and Chandler. After that, a cap hold is put in place for each roster spot under 12, filling in some of the Knicks' projected cap space. Because a team must have 12 players under contract at all times in the regular season, the CBA makes sure teams account for the minimum contracts they must use to fill out their roster before they use their cap space. The minimum rookie contract for the 10-11 season is 490,180. The Knicks thus also have 3,921,440 in cap holds (8 roster spots) to add to their salary in the offseason, putting them at a total of 21,704,344.

[...]

Assuming the Knicks and Curry agree to the buyout as stated above, that would net the Knicks cap savings of 909,327, because they'd have to add yet another cap hold to account for Curry no longer being there. This would put the Knicks up to 32,204,983 in cap space. If the goal is to sign two max players, you can also deduct two roster spot cap holds from the team's guaranteed salary, seeing how the max players would be filling those voids, {emphasis mine} so that brings the cap space up to 33,185,343.

Actually, you can't subtract both of those roster spot holds until after the players have signed. Assuming that they sign one at a time, you'll have seven min. holds in place when it comes time to sign the second, which means removing an extra ~$500k from their available space. All things taken into consideration, the only real chance the Knicks have of signing two max FAs is for at least one to come via sign-and-trade...and given that all of the max-worthy FAs want the Bird max that can only come by sign-and-trade, that's really the only route anyway.

My understanding is it happens simultaneously. It wouldn't make sense for it to work the way you suggest, though I could be wrong. Think about it this way: If I had 11 players under contract, when signing my 12th player, you're telling me there would be a conflicting cap hold in place for that 12th roster spot? That makes no sense. The signing eliminates the cap hold.

[daheata]

When exactly do the Knicks have to make the decision to renounce David Lee? Could they keep his rights and (the possibility of signing him using the Bird exception) after July 1st, scope out the landscape and talk to free agents, then renounce him at some later point if they have a better use for the cap hold, i.e. signing a second max player? In other words, let's say that on July 15 LBJ and Bosh both decide they want to play together for the Knicks. Could we at that point renounce D-Lee to make it happen?

[Schad]

My understanding is it happens simultaneously. It wouldn't make sense for it to work the way you suggest, though I could be wrong. Think about it this way: If I had 11 players under contract, when signing my 12th player, you're telling me there would be a conflicting cap hold in place for that 12th roster spot? That makes no sense. The signing eliminates the cap hold.

The signing eliminates the cap hold, but only after the player is signed...it still has to be taken into account when calculating the space available for that contract. It was previously discussed on the CBA board here:

But if we're talking about spendable cap room, in reality we have to account for 13 roster slots each time a player is signed - the others already signed, plus cap holds to the 12th, and then this player is 13.

So in the example given in the OP, Miami would have to have been setting aside 7 cap holds or more (not 6) as they signed each of those six players, and for practical purposes if we're Miami trying to fit all six onto our roster, we have to set aside seven cap holds in determining room to sign those six.

[hoopdata]

Interesting. Still would like to have seen an example of it or hear it from someone within a team. I'm going to ask around.

[hoopdata]

You're right. Got confirmation from Larry Coon and an NBA exec.

[livintoolive]

Can't we just sign players to 10day contracts first, eliminating the need for a cap hold? I'm sure they 100k it would take for 2-3 players on 10 days wouldn't hurt.

[hoopdata]

You can't sign someone to a 10-day contract in the offseason.

[JimmyDolan]

Would trading Eddy Curry's expiring contract be a better option for the Knicks than buying him out?How much would the Knicks save in a buyout? A few million?Maybe less. If they can attract 2 MAX players,wouldn't trading the Curry expiring contract for a piece to fit with those 2 MAX players make more sense?

[rmed64]

Would like to keep Lee while bringing in 2 MAX players this offseason. If that is what buying out Eddy could do for us, then we should IMO if we cant ship him.

[BartenderBrian]

Buying out Eddy won't create the space to bring back Lee. Whatever $$ we do pay him counts against the cap.

[drj]

As far as I can see there are three main options for Lee at this point:

1. Used in s&t for one of our max FA targets. For instance, if Toronto thinks they will lose Bose outright, they might prefer to get some value back. The problem is that this doesn't really help us so much, in comparison with just signing Bosh outright and letting Lee walk. It mainly helps Bosh get a bit more money. Though I could see this being expanded with Curry's expiring contract, where we also take on an overpaid but still quality player (in the Toronto example, Hedo is a good candidate). This expanded s&t scenario is one of the few useful scenarios I can see remaining with Lee.

2. S&t to a team under the cap, as a way for us to recoup picks or get prospects. The problem is that a team under the cap can sign Lee outright, so there is little incentive for them to send anything back.

3. Our own backup option if no one else comes. Hopefully it won't come to that! And if it does, it is not obvious we should make a long term commitment to Lee, rather than gunning for 2011 FA.

[jhb713]

The Knicks Roster
2010/2011
Curry $11,276,863
Gallinari $3,304,560
Chandler $2,130,481
Douglas $1,071,000
Filler $500,000.00
Filler $500,000.00
Filler $500,000.00
Filler $500,000.00
Filler $500,000.00
Filler $500,000.00
Filler $500,000.00
Max $15,900,000@53M $16,200,000.00@54M $16,500,000@55M $16,800,000@56M
Cap Space After 1 Max:
@53M: $15,817,096.00
@54M: $16,517,096.00
@55M: $17,217,096.00
@56M: $17,917,096.00

For things to work out perfectly the cap would need to be at least $53,207,260

If the cap is at that magic number then the Knicks, after signing 2 max free agents (Lebron & Bosh?), would trade Eddy Curry's expiring contract and 3M($8,276,863) for longer term contract(s) between $8,941,490.40 and $14,196,078.75. If the cap is below that number the Knicks would have to trade Eddy and 3M for the difference needed to sign 2 max free agents
Yes, I know this does not include Sergio Rodriguez and his $2,805,888.00 QO but it will probably have to be renounced for the max free agents along with all the other free agents. A sign and trade with Lee will be hard because we will need to most likely take back salary, although I would not against a TPE and non-guaranteed contracts

Possible Curry trades if the cap is above $53,207,260(not saying they should or would be done)
Knicks-
Eddy Curry + 3M
Golden state-
Andris Biedrins 9M through2013/2014
Kelena Azubuike
or
Emeka Okafor
or.......
Just giving possibilities please don't kill me on them