Does anyone else feel that...

[ajizzle]

^I agree that we should look inside, Old School, but IDC how we're scoring points to be completely honest. Offense hasn't been our problem all year. It's been our D, which hasn't improved w/ the return of JO. Much like steals on the perimeter don't necessarily equal defense, blocks don't either, especially when the blocks aren't directed to a teammate or at least out of bounds to allow the D to reset.

Live or die by the 3... so far, this year, we've been living quite well! We all knew that Obie's offense was gonna feature a lot of 3s, whether they be off of turnovers, inside-out, screens, straight pullups, what have you. At least w/ our 3s, we're more likely to score more points... When JO gets in the post, it's usually one-and-done, no offensive boards, no passing out, no trips to the line, nothing. I want our guys to cut more, but that's not the offense that Obie runs. It never has been, and it's probably not gonna change now.

Besides, we are mainly a team of shooters, which means we need someone to go the paint and kick it out... JO is our best option to do that, but he doesn't drive enough... and when he does, he's looking for his own shot first. He needs to drive-and-kick about 75% of the time he touches the ball, but instead he fades away or just pulls for his shaky J. We are shooters primarily, and if it means we die w/ that strategy, then sobeit. But we aren't dying b/c of our offense. Our D is killing us. As far as adages go: DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS! Right now, our D can't win a stuffed animal at the State Fair.

JO isn't only stunting Danny's growth, but he's holding this entire team back. There's a reason Hakeem, Shaq, and Timmah were the cornerstones of their title teams... B/C they knew, like most FRANCHISE PLAYERS THAT WIN DO, that they had to get everyone involved. The Spurs have been one of the best 3-pt shooting teams in the L recently, and they get most of their looks b/c Duncan (along w/ Parker & Ginobili) knows how to TRULY DRAW A DOUBLE TEAM, AND PASS OUT! Even if he doesn't get the assist, he knows that the next pass will lead to the open shot.

Besides Tinsley, we don't have another player who does that night in and night out. JO COULD do it, but he doesn't. Marquis could too, but JO is the leader, and I'm pretty sure he's seen how the Spurs have won. If not the Spurs, then Shaq's Lakers and Hakeem's Rockets. Draw the double by driving or getting into the paint, then find the open man... quite simple, but apparently not to us...

[old school pacer fan]

The link I posted is the offical NBA list, that is the list they post when they come in from college to get tested for the NBA.

Now I am going with that list over what some team list, sort of like in college, they allways put the guy up a couple of inches.

To Granger, like I stated earlier, its his passing and handles and overall Bball IQ I question, IMO , in all of those Granger is weak.

Ike is 30 pounds heavier yes, but much shorter and slower than Granger, Granger is built like the 4's of todays game, and like I said earlier, his weakness at the 3 would be his strenght at the 4 .

Most 4's could not guard him, and YES he is strong enough to guard them, his quickness would show there.

Play Granger at 4, S Williams at 3, back them up with Foster and Ike sliding Granger over when you have to .

JO is our inside player anyway, Murphy is worthless and does not deserve to play anyway, I am sick of watching him jack up 3's FROM THE CENTER POSITION, Murphy plays no D and is scared to bang with the big boys, he should have his ### under helping JO, Granger would, and S Williams is a dam good rebounder for a 3.

IMO, S Williams is the best of the so called younger players and he SHOULD play, he is years younger than both Ike { who he is a better prospect than} and Granger, who IMO, he is a better athleticly and a higher BBall IQ at his young age.

It's nice to have all 3 , and it looks good for the future, BUT WE HAVE TO GET IT RIGHT.

PS. live by the jumper, die by the jumper = TRUE, we lost to freaking MEMPHIS cause we were off that night.

Jump shooters are fine , but I will take a BBall PLAYER anyday

[ajizzle]

^Completely agree. Tell JO, our best "inside" player, to start playing INSIDE!!! Until then, I'd much rather have Danny & Co. taking the Js that JO takes...

[JarrettJackSG]

Well, then, here's to hoping that JO acutally does opt-out at the end of the season.

[ajizzle]

Well, we need to trade him for 1) an expiring deal, 2) draft picks, 3) another PG, 4) a big who doesn't require touches to be effective, or 5) a fine combination of the aforementioned.

I love JO, and I think that he could be much like Tim Duncan for this team... but he needs to be like Tim, and look to get everyone else involved first, then use everyone else's success to his advantage secondly. Like Tim, he's never gonna be a consistent 25ppg scorer, but he can still win titles b/c he rebounds well, defends well, and uses the fundamentals of bball to be a champion.

Individually, is Duncan better than Shaq? No, but he'll end up w/ more titles b/c he has chemistry w/ all his teammates, and he knows that 5 heads are better than 1 or 2, and he knows how to make that happen, and he learned that Year One of his illustrious career.

[CableKC]

^Completely agree. Tell JO, our best "inside" player, to start playing INSIDE!!! Until then, I'd much rather have Danny & Co. taking the Js that JO takes...

Well, we need to trade him for 1) an expiring deal, 2) draft picks, 3) another PG, 4) a big who doesn't require touches to be effective, or 5) a fine combination of the aforementioned.

It's wierd....but share the same exact opinion when it comes to what we need to get back if we trade JONeal.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

The more I watch, I'm starting to think its Obie stinting Granger's growth, not only Granger's, but Diogu's and Williams' as well. Look at this.

Granger: His growth is partly his fault too obviously, but I feel as if Obie needs to let Granger know to take a minimum of 15 shots a game. Whenever Granger gets shots, we do very well. In the games we lost recently, he was shooting about 9 a game. He needs to be more involved in the offense, period. Obie also needs to have Granger drive more, Granger has shown the ability to, Granger is a player that needs to be coached, I don't feel like Obie is doing a good enough job bringing Granger along. I realize a lot of people disagree with me here, but its my opinion.

Diogu: This one is the one that pisses me off the most. Unlike Granger, Diogu is barely getting on the floor. I understand part of it is his game conditioning, but I also remember they didn't bring him back earlier because of this. I feel like even if this wasn't a problem we wouldn't see him much. Look at his stats, in 13 mpg he is getting 7 points and 4 rebounds per game. This is including his injury which hampered his stats. To say he plays 13 mpg is also a stretch since he has not been getting much time at all since coming back, only 3 minutes in LA. Again, I understand his injury is part of it, but even then I don't feel like he would get time. Him playing behind O'Neal is also a huge factor, but O'Neal can go C with Diogu at PF in small ball, I would love to see them on the court at the same time, in the time they have played together, they have shown great chemistry.

Williams: This one is more understandable....kinda. Williams was playing great offensively for his role in our offense. All he was doing was scoring though, his rebounding has been terrible this year. I just recently noticed that. But even then, we still have a great rebounding team, we do get out rebounded, but barely. I think his offense enough is reason to play him. His minutes go down, and we start losing like last year. Clearly thats not just because of him, but I do feel like he played a huge role in our early season victories. His bench scoring was great. Its not like hes a bad rebounder either, I have no excuse as to why he wasn't rebounding, but he shouldn't be getting 1-2 minutes a game because of that(assuming thats part of the reason).

I'm starting to feel like Obie is not the right coach for us. I really like what he has done with this team, and I'm not even saying we should fire him yet. However, he is doing a terrible job at bringing our young players along, I don't expect him to revolve the team around them, but Diogu and Williams need quality minutes at least. He needs to let Granger know he is our #2 scoring option behind O'Neal, possibly #1 with our new offense.

I also feel like he is making Granger and Williams soft. With our new jump shooting offense we hardly ever see a player take it to the hole - thats a problem. We need free throws, and more importantly we need Granger and Williams to become all around threats. I would love to see Granger get around 8 free throws a game.

Sorry for the rant, but I just read an old article by an ESPN columnist, talking about how good Diogu was after the big trade. Also, I'm not saying these are all facts or anything, they are just my opinions. I also want to throw out there that I really do like what Obie has done, but I look at our young core and our future is becoming more and more dim with each game.

[ajizzle]

Well, I don't know what's really out there, and I've given up on trade ideas until there's at least some smoke through rumors... I mean, Pacer fans have been trying to deal JO since some thought that Artest was the key to our 2004 run, and I have been one of them, to be honest.

I just want what's best for the team, like most Pacer fans do. We all just have a different way of getting there.

My first option is to ultimately keep JO and tell him to change his style to suit the rest of the team... b/c I want the Pacers to be successful while JO is here, and as much as I complain about his decision-making skills, 6'11 PFs who have his skill set don't really grow on trees, the majority of which probably don't think of Indy as a great career move.

I said in another thread that madness is defined as doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result. I just think that after doing things his way for 3 or 4 years now, on a team that isn't gonna hold opponents to 90 like we did in 2004, JO should change his game.

I'm not against JO getting touches, especially in the post, as long as he uses his ability to draw double/triple teams to get everyone else involved. But he rarely does that... and it's frustrating. Hence, I then say that we need to get Danny his shots, or trade JO, or just give him another role on the squad.

Believe me! I've defended JO for quite some time now. But like I said before, I'd be mad if I continue to believe in someone who's gonna do the same thing repeatedly that doesn't produce winning bball.

Is it the coach's fault? Is it the GM's fault? Is it the rest of the team? I'm sure there's blame to go around. But like most sports, the heart of it all rests w/ the franchise player. Like Payback,"No matter how high you go, there's always one guy..."; and for us, that's Jermaine.

I don't have a sure-fire way to solve the problem; just offer suggestions and see what others think.

[JarrettJackSG]

I'm pretty sure Obie wasn't brought in to develop the younger players. I absolutely absolve Obie of the blame at the moment since it doesn't seem like we are playing to develop. What you are asking for, DGx33, sounds like rebuilding.