bucks.com: Mo Williams has surgery

[carmelbrownqueen]

-= original quote snipped =-



Bottom line is he sat and didn't make a fuss in the media or demand a trade. We didn't see him called out by anyone and he was the model of a good teammate from everything that came out of Bucks camp.

I find it absolutely fascinating that in this day and age, someone it's only the Milwaukee Bucks that you never see or hear players taking their gripes to the press. Sure, we hear from unnamed sources on anonymous message boards that so-and-so did whatever, but amazingly, all we ever hear from the players is a laugh and how nothing of the sort ever happened.

And CBQ, you still haven't answered my question. What player did something for the sake of the team?

CV expressed frustration and even speculated (in the most politically correct of ways) about his future in Milwaukee in that blog on nba.com. He was not direct in the media, but he did somewhat elude to his displeasure and desire to be in a different situation. Behind closed doors he asked for a trade, and even during games his body language spoke volumes about his "willingness" to come off the bench for the good of the team. CV was never happy with his role, and he never pretended to be.. so I'm not sure where you are coming from on that.

In response to who did what for the sake of the team.. very few of our productive players consistently did something for the sake of the team. However, I think Sessions came in at the end and passed the ball the way none of our other starting or backups would. Ivey came in and willingly played whatever role was asked of him. Ruffin came in and willingly played his role whenever he was called upon. Yes.. all of these guys are bench players but they willingly played their role and seemed content to do whatever was asked of them for the sake of the team.

[El Duderino]

-= original quote snipped =-



In response to who did what for the sake of the team.. very few of our productive players consistently did something for the sake of the team. However, I think Sessions came in at the end and passed the ball the way none of our other starting or backups would. Ivey came in and willingly played whatever role was asked of him. Ruffin came in and willingly played his role whenever he was called upon. Yes.. all of these guys are bench players but they willingly played their role and seemed content to do whatever was asked of them for the sake of the team.

I don't think guys like Ruffin and Ivey always play hard or do whatever asked out of some noble sake for the team, they do this because they have no other choice if they want to keep collecting an NBA paycheck. There are only about 375 NBA jobs for a player, job security is paramount for 11th/12 men.

Back of the bench guys in most sports get praised all the time for doing anything their coaches ask, but if they actually had many great skills, my guess is a good number of those easy to please scrubs would end up also having some prima donna in them.

When your the 10th/11th/12th man on a basketball team and usually playing year to year on one year contracts, you better do pretty much anything asked of you or you'll get the boot and the teams will find some other low talent fringe hustler.

I'm not excusing all the mega rich prima donnas in the NBA that choose to hustle when they please or bitch when they don't like their role, but the reality is, most players who are skilled enough to get a big contract, also come with healthy egos that have been stroked for years.

[NotYoAvgNBAFan]

This is another reason why this hook is not a starter...

HE CAN'T STAY HEALTHY!

TJ Ford is tougher then he is! He will never play in 82 full games...never much less a quality 48 minutes.

That is why you move him and keep Redd if you had to make a choice.

[Jez2983]

to repair ligament damage in his right thumb

That's pretty severe - need a large force to damage ligaments - don't generally just break down unless something is being done repetitvely wrong...

He obviously didn't hurt it playing defense.

Ok this is a guy we know will be shopped around this summer. And we wait over a month for him to have the surgery? He last played on 4/4. Have the damn surgery right away. He'd already be more than 4 weeks into the 6 week recovery time. Teams will want to make sure he's going to be 100% before trading for him.

Maybe there's already a trade agreed to in principle and his new team has asked him to have the surgery to be ready for camp later in the year

As far as his injury goes he had that bandage on his thumb since December I believe. Maybe even earlier then that.

Heaps of dudes just have tape coz they got a ball on their thumb 2 years ago and just can't play without it for mental reasons. Epi brought up an example of the Celtics (?) years ago where guys played and looked like mummys. Some people just need to think they're OK.

Wrist/finger surgeries can take a while to recover from though - not as bad as feet (!) but he would need maximum possible recovery time to get his wrist/fingers OK.

[pilprin]

On this present squad, we have a SG in a PG body (Mo), two SF in a PF body (CV &Yi), a SG/SF who plays like a PF (Dez), a SF who plays like a SG (Simmons) and a spaz in a C body (Gadz).

We are more like a team from the Island of misfit toys than an NBA team.

Everyone of those players could be good complimentary players on a normal team, but together...well we have seen the painful play.

1/2 of this roster needs to be turned over with players that fit. We have a bunch of accessories, but few quality pieces.

[smauss]

On this present squad, we have a SG in a PG body (Mo), two SF in a PF body (CV &Yi), a SG/SF who plays like a PF (Dez), a SF who plays like a SG (Simmons) and a spaz in a C body (Gadz).

We are more like a team from the Island of misfit toys than an NBA team.

Everyone of those players could be good complimentary players on a normal team, but together...well we have seen the painful play.

1/2 of this roster needs to be turned over with players that fit. We have a bunch of accessories, but few quality pieces.

I have been saying this for a long time. LH, Herbie and the Yes-men or maybe all of the above, whoever was responsible for putting this team together may have an eye for talent but doesn't do very well at putting together a team. I believe Hammond does and will (if he's allowed to)........

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-

In response to who did what for the sake of the team.. very few of our productive players consistently did something for the sake of the team. However, I think Sessions came in at the end and passed the ball the way none of our other starting or backups would. Ivey came in and willingly played whatever role was asked of him. Ruffin came in and willingly played his role whenever he was called upon. Yes.. all of these guys are bench players but they willingly played their role and seemed content to do whatever was asked of them for the sake of the team.

Wow. Our 8th, 9th and 10th best basketball players came off the bench and played...their roles.

Don't hurt yourself reaching, there, CBQ.

[europa]

I'm not excusing all the mega rich prima donnas in the NBA that choose to hustle when they please or bitch when they don't like their role, but the reality is, most players who are skilled enough to get a big contract, also come with healthy egos that have been stroked for years.

The problem - and CBQ correct me if I'm misinterpreting your point - is that too many of the Bucks placed their egos above the team. I think the three worst culprits this season were Mo, Redd and Villanueva. Mo's ego was way out of control; Redd's ego obviously became a problem and Villanueva thought he should start even though he was outplayed by Skinner last season and by Yi in camp this year. So he spent a lot of time griping behind the scenes and playing like absolute garbage most of the time when he came off the bench.

Every good player has an ego. That in itself isn't a bad thing. But the great ones understand that placing their own interests above the team's produces nothing of substance. The Bucks have yet to figure that out and I think it's one of the big reasons why they have been so bad the past two seasons.

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-



The problem - and CBQ correct me if I'm misinterpreting your point - is that too many of the Bucks placed their egos above the team. I think the three worst culprits this season were Mo, Redd and Villanueva. Mo's ego was way out of control; Redd's ego obviously became a problem and Villanueva thought he should start even though he was outplayed by Skinner last season and by Yi in camp this year. So he spent a lot of time griping behind the scenes and playing like absolute garbage most of the time when he came off the bench.

Every good player has an ego. That in itself isn't a bad thing. But the great ones understand that placing their own interests above the team's produces nothing of substance. The Bucks have yet to figure that out and I think it's one of the big reasons why they have been so bad the past two seasons.

Personally, I think the problem is talent.

There's a reason that the average pre-season position predicted by a dozen ESPN experts was between 12th and 13th in the East. These guys looked at the rosters and coaches before the season, and they thought that Bucks didn't have enough to even sniff the playoffs. They were right.

Say that the team, or rather your three main culprits, did exactly what was expected. Redd reigned in his scoring, Mo looked to others more often than not and CV simply played as hard coming off the bench as he does when he's starting.

I actually think that team wins less. Face it. The the only three players on this team capable of winning games with their scoring are the ones you'd rather deferred. The one stretch of games that they appeared to play unselfish coincided with the wheels coming off and the season going down the drain.

The problem isn't egos, it's talent. This team doesn't have it.

[europa]

I agree there's a lack of talent. I talked about that before the season and was called "Mr. Gloom" or something of that nature because I didn't believe this was a talented team. I thought the talent and roster composition was terrible. On top of that, some of the players think they're more talented then they really are. That's when the egos become a problem. It's a bad team and there are a number of reasons why. That's why I'd be fine getting rid of as many players as possible this summer and starting over. No way it'll be any worse than the crap we've seen the past two seasons.

[midranger]

Both Europa and I agreed before the season that the team would suck. That's something.

[carmelbrownqueen]

-= original quote snipped =-



Wow. Our 8th, 9th and 10th best basketball players came off the bench and played...their roles.

Don't hurt yourself reaching, there, CBQ.

I don't see it as a reach at all. Yes they were our 8th, 9th, and 10th men coming off the bench, but that doesn't mean they are required to come out and play their role without complaining about it. Also, let's not pretend like all NBA players regardless of talent level don't have egos or are just happy to be on a team.. many are not. Many believe they deserve more because of whatever they bring to the floor night in and night out. They aren't just happy to play the game on whatever team gives them the opportunity, they want more. And a fair amount believe they have what it takes to help a team if given the right amount of minutes (including starters minutes) even if they aren't the most talented of players individually.

Let's not forget that there have been a number of players this season in the media complaining about their "role" on the team, and not necessarily performing up to their capabilities because of their unhappiness. For example, Mickael Pietrus campaigned all season to be let go or traded so he could go to Miami or wherever else would give him the most minutes. Jamaal Magloire respectfully complained about his role and wondered about his fit with NJ. Marbury was a distraction in NY because of how Isaiah was using him. JR Smith was confused and somewhat complained about how he has been used on two of his previous teams, including his role in Denver this season (at times). Even David Noel asked for his release from the Bucks because he firmly believed he outplayed our two primary SF's during practices, and was deserving of more minutes than he was getting. Bench guys aren't always the most talented or the guys with the biggest paychecks but they aren't all just happy to go along for the ride and do whatever it takes to make their teams win. They are ego maniacal too.. and they complain about their roles every season in the NBA. This is nothing new. Guys who are really invested like that are guys who buy into the team, the coaching, love their teammates, and are a part of winning organizations.. so its not a reach to say these guys did their part for the "good" of the team.

So back to CV..... He came into this season believing he firmly had the starting job in his back pocket, and that Yi would be coming off the bench as his relief.. When training camp came around and Yi outperformed him and he was subsequently demoted. CV sulked. Ran to his buddy Herb Kohl and derided the coach. Demanded trades behind the scenes and even lightly campaigned publically because he didn't buy into having to come off the bench. Did he ride the bench this season? Absolutely, but never ever did he do it gracefully and because he truly bought into that being the best place for him or the team as a whole.

I know some want to ignore this fact, but we talked about his body language and his poor play for a majority of the season. Before the All Star break many on this board were firmly on the Yi Jianlian train, then once he started to struggle it was said that CV shouldn't have come off the bench in the first place.. even though he was being clearly outplayed by a rookie. He didn't buy into his role (and no I'm not saying he is the only one) and it's erroneous to say that he willing did anything..

[carmelbrownqueen]

-= original quote snipped =-



The problem - and CBQ correct me if I'm misinterpreting your point - is that too many of the Bucks placed their egos above the team. I think the three worst culprits this season were Mo, Redd and Villanueva. Mo's ego was way out of control; Redd's ego obviously became a problem and Villanueva thought he should start even though he was outplayed by Skinner last season and by Yi in camp this year. So he spent a lot of time griping behind the scenes and playing like absolute garbage most of the time when he came off the bench.

Every good player has an ego. That in itself isn't a bad thing. But the great ones understand that placing their own interests above the team's produces nothing of substance. The Bucks have yet to figure that out and I think it's one of the big reasons why they have been so bad the past two seasons.

Well stated..

[ReasonablySober]

-= original quote snipped =-



I don't see it as a reach at all. Yes they were our 8th, 9th, and 10th men coming off the bench, but that doesn't mean they are required to come out and play their role without complaining about it. Also, let's not pretend like all NBA players regardless of talent level don't have egos or are just happy to be on a team.. many are not. Many believe they deserve more because of whatever they bring to the floor night in and night out. They aren't just happy to play the game on whatever team gives them the opportunity, they want more. And a fair amount believe they have what it takes to help a team if given the right amount of minutes (including starters minutes) even if they aren't the most talented of players individually.

Ivey and Ruffin need to follow orders and accept their role or they would simply never see the court. Sessions needed to be the model of hard worker and team player or his ass would have been shipped off to the NBDL. None of them are talented enough to do anything less than what the coach wanted.

It's the exact same thing we saw with Bell two years ago. He was everyone's favorite because he came in and defended and looked to others. He did so because he didn't want to end up in Europe again and he was smart enough to see that if he played hard he could get a long term contract down the road. Look what happened. He signed that deal and now he looks little like the guy we saw when he first broke in with the Bucks.

Bottom line is the three you mentioned had to be company men or they would have on the bench and/or out of the league.

[Zeus LA]

-= original quote snipped =-



Other than CV willingly taking a seat for an unproven and ineffective rookie, what player did anything for the sake of the team?

Bogut played through the hip injury in feb/mar that appeared to affect his game.

[trwi7]

-= original quote snipped =-




Bogut played through the hip injury in feb/mar that appeared to affect his game.

IIRC the hip injury only effected Bogut when he had a bad game. At least according to some on here.

[Nowak008]

Heaps of dudes just have tape coz they got a ball on their thumb 2 years ago and just can't play without it for mental reasons. Epi brought up an example of the Celtics (?) years ago where guys played and looked like mummys. Some people just need to think they're OK.

\.

Well that isnt the case with Mo - he is having surgery.

[REDDzone]

-= original quote snipped =-



IIRC the hip injury only effected Bogut when he had a bad game. At least according to some on here.

No see I disagree with this Twirly, everyone was saying at the time that his hip pain "magically disappeared" because he started playing well...but nobody ever considered that he started playing well because his hip got better.

You don't remember all the grimacing and holding his hip whenever the play would slow down?

I don't know, that was pre-Bogut quitting that last time, and therefore right in the middle of me being a Bogut homer, so maybe I have selective perception.

[Jez2983]

Well that isnt the case with Mo - he is having surgery.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I just meant that if he had tape on his hand it didn't necessarily mean he had the injury that required the surgery at that point earlier in the season that you mentioned.

[Nowak008]

-= original quote snipped =-



Sorry, I wasn't being clear. I just meant that if he had tape on his hand it didn't necessarily mean he had the injury that required the surgery at that point earlier in the season that you mentioned.

That wasn't the case. After injuring his hand and was wearing a brace Mo said that it was going to require surgery at the end of the season. I believe it was just after training camp.